Easy to ignore 90% of the time but then it somehow leads to shit like Kyle Carrozza getting fellow artists blacklisted while sexually assaulting peers.
"Anti" spaces is a cesspool of weird "fandom mom/dad" types who use their perceived safety and wholesomeness to try and date teenagers.
I can only assume Proship means you love boats that sail the ocean. An Antiship must be some form of boat that atomically annihilates a regular boat when coming in contact with it.
I love that I've found this group of people to be one of the most annoying in the internet. Yet I still do not know and refuse to understand the meaning of their stances.
I'm on some proshipper blocklist on clearsky because I think I called someone a pedo or smth and that's as far as I can care to engage with fandom: civil war
Sometimes on twitter because I was in a lot of youth lib and anti abuse circles I'd see a post about the harms of csam and a fandom war would erupt in the replies and I just think like, why is that happening under a post about csam, I hate everyone.
Proship: People who get really angry over other people not consuming/enjoying a wide array of what they perceive as "problematic" content for any reason.
Antiship: everyone else.
How easily this can be reversed and seem somewhat reasonable still shows how trash these terms are imo
Also overgeneralization like. Fucking sucks. You'll find bad eggs anywhere. I've seen some shitty ass "proshippers" and another that was nothing but kind. Same with "antis"
Generalizing is bad and the terms are often misused but I don't think "what if I made this up? if I can make this definition up, maybe any definition is pointless" is a great argument
There's definitely a definition but nobody that is often In This Discourse can define it well because they're all horribly biased
Also somewhat this(?) Iunno doesn't feel fully applicable for this conversation https://bsky.app/profile/regale.nekoweb.org/post/3lfpfp67lcs26
I'm not fully disagreeing with the stupidity in this discourse, nor saying that people on either side can't be consumed with pointless squabbles and lack of media literacy. I simply don't think that fully delegitimizes anyone who does gravitate towards a side
I feel like you read half of my post, said to yourself "what? no!" and decided to tell me I'm wrong when the whole point is "this take is stupid and shallow and can apply to a lot of people on either side"
The only reason I know much about pro/anti stuff is because of how weird, transphobic, and abusive people with "proship" in their bios kept being to me.
See but ive seen this SAME comment made about people with "anti" in their bio. The lack of selfawareness on both sides is appauling. This was my point but people completely miss that for defending whatever side they think they are on. The endless discourse is the entire point of this vague language.
So, here's the fun part: we see both of your groups as belonging to the same problem. Antis and Pros or whatever. You have the same fundamental problems. We're not soldiers in your war.
I'm sorry people have been weird to you. That's very disappointing. My experience is often the opposite, that many proship people have more inclusive beliefs on queer identity, so it's unfortunate you've experienced that
No, I'm saying that having two terms that lump mass amounts of people into "good" and "bad" is at best pointless and at worst the most insufferable discourse imaginable. The only people who use "proship" are people who wish to moralize other people's taste in fiction, period.
The fact that so many people immediately jump to assuming im talking about pedo shit is my point. Being able to say "they are proship" and imply a thousand things just by that accusation is bad. And this is related to transphobic talking points but yall aint fucking ready to handle any of this.
The problem with being "proship" is that it invariably means the person likes hentai of characters drawn to look like toddlers.
The problem with being "anti" is that you think a characters canon age matters regardless of how they are portrayed, and become super moralistic over it.
Proship does not imply that implicitly. The point of my post is that "proship" is literally language designed to be non-specific and imply anything 'problematic' can be considered on the same level of bad as the worst examples.
This is based on the direction I see the conversation go the most often. Maybe it wouldn't work as well if you swapped in something else on the "proship" side, since the "problem with being anti" side response is less clear to me, but it works as a general summary.
Sure, it doesn't exclusively mean that, but if you want to be more specific than the person I originally replied to, it can.
I don't care about describing weird internet factions in a technically correct way when a large portion of the "discourse" actually does just boil down to this.
It does, but it sucks that it does, especially because the term is intentionally misused in many cases to be equivalent to being a predator. It creates less and less opportunities for actual discussions and just incites hate. People can explain exactly what they mean by the term and still +
get steamrolled by absurd accusations and a refusal to engage with them on any neutral basis because "you use this term that some people think means this, and even though it didn't mean this to begin with, and people who use it don't usually mean that, some people misuse it, so it must be true"
it's like "yimby" and "nimby," both groups represent groups of people aligned against my interests, but pretend that one is either in their camp or their rival camp
Fandom drama really does spiral into entire philosophical battles sometimes. At the end of the day, it feels like people forget fanfiction is supposed to be fun. Not everything needs to be a battleground—sometimes it's just stories about fictional characters holding hands.
No like look my point isn't that you can't argue about media or whatever, my point is that the culture around "pro" and "anti" is fundamentally operating on bad media analysis
I hear you! It’s not that debate is bad—it’s just that the whole “pro vs anti” culture feels like it skips deeper media analysis. Not everything is a moral battleground. Sometimes fanfiction (or media) is just meant to be enjoyed or critiqued without it turning into an internet warzone.
I know nothing about writing, fanfiction or media analysis, but on social media everything HAS to be a moral battleground because outrage is one of the main drivers of attention. There are three social media categories. Cute animals, crafts&diy and outrage. All content ends in one category.
Proship means, I think wanting to see romantic relationships between characters in stories.
Antiship is a type of missile or torpedo.
No reason one can't be both things, really.
"On her brief, deadliy flight toward the destroyers, CX-1157 dreamed about Snape and Miss Frizzle..."
as i am anti censorship of fiction /art i am per definition proship but also people have no idea what words mean so it's been misused for approximately since fandom made it out of tumblr/ webcircles so im not using it. i don't want any part of that
The truth is that the inland counties benefit from maritime trade and as such should not be exempted from taxes that coastal counties pay to fund the navy. I don't like the king much personally but I like piratical brigands even less.
"You don't like the king much? But I'm on your side!" said Charles I (and kept saying to everyone, y'know, prior to that final, fatal surgical procedure).
I don’t exactly understand the problem with it unless it’s supporting pedos or zoos, ship who you want if you do that sort of thing, just don’t go too crazy or go into fucked up territory
In my case, I don’t care about the relationships, I’m ace…
I get the exasperation, but please understand that you're talking about purity culture.
It was never about fanfiction. People in fandom spaces are upset about the fascist rhetoric, not the innocuous target of fanwork. "Antis" are a very weird kind of psyop with radfem and alt-right origins.
Respectfully (and I mean that sincerely), It's incredibly insensitive to the countless people who have been stalked, harassed, doxxed, hospitalized, and killed by antis. The stories of victims being driven to suicide are nothing to scoff at because you think it's "about fanfiction". It is not.
I refuse to use disingenuous labels, but "proship" simply means "against purity culture", specific to fandom spaces.
It's easy to take the "both sides" centrist stance, especially when the entire order shouldn't exist. I get that. But the mocking of something historically devastating is not great.
I'm on the "holy fuck this sounds like an incredibly reductive way to frame the issue of fictional morality, get some media literacy and involve yourselves in real politics instead" side
Respectfully, this isn't something to skim over, either.
Gamergate was a major factor in how the right infiltrated men's hobbyist spaces and exploded alt right sentiments. Fash ideology is doing the same exact thing with puritanical ideology in fandom spaces.
Then I'm missing some context necessary to understand your initial comments—why dismiss puritanical shipping rhetoric as unimportant compared to real politics if you're aware of its use to radicalize the youth?
The thing I have been witnessing is reactionary tendencies from the entirety of fandom, independent of the pro/anti split, and as multiple people in the replies have attested to the transmisogyny problem in particular is not specific to one of the other.
We don't disagree about transmisogyny being a ubiquitous problem. But there's a meaningful difference in the beliefs of these two sides, which lends itself to radfems and terfs (read: baby fash) aligning more often with "antiship" perspectives.
As someone whos been in the trenches... my advice is just to steer away from anyone who takes this war seriously. It really is the most reductive approach to morality in fiction and it's also the biggest waste of time ever.
I don't want these opinions I don't want to look like I'm taking a side because I think the other is worse they are both bad why can't we have non-reductive stances on things
lol, lmao even. Here we are in the year 2025, everything is on fire and we're staring down the barrel of a gun, but yea y'all do go on about how this particular piece of media is the most critical thing out there... Totally worth expending vst amount of emotions energy and effort over...
Because people calling for censorship in media have nothing to do with real life politics and don’t have a history of correlating with fascist groups/systems…
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely agree that getting into real life politics/protesting/doing community help etc. are more important than
"Pro censorship" vs "anti censorship" is an extremely reductive way to frame discussions of media and I am completely committed to that position because I've already spent a solid DECADE aware of that issue.
I already got that, since you are basically just rephrasing your initial post. But I still don’t understand WHY you think that for/against censorship is a reductive/not important when it comes to "real politics" discussion, when literally all the terfs, Christian nationalists, nazis and
other hate groups are so hellbent on implementing censorship of themes their hateful worldview deems "inappropriate". Like censorship is one of the biggest discussions in American education right now, it is something that happens in all dictatorships and most oppressive systems, it
I agree but also call myself proship, while also thinking the term is kinda silly, because I think the split is an ineffective way to talk about media.
"That's just [one of the sides but which one is up to who's saying it]" No. Skim a Wikipedia page on a political theory. My expectations are too low to ask you to read a book.
Yes, it's a culture war bs and yes, the "sides" are ridiculous. That being said, people who identify as "antis" are the ones who stole my personal photos because I supported an artist they hate and have harassed and even attempted IRL harm on others.
legit, tired of people saying it doesn't matter irl when people offline have told my parents im friends with pedophiles because I interacted with some proshipper. one of the reasons I left my queer youth group was bc they were antis making false pedo accusations to get people they didn't like banned
like dear God I wish having media literacy meant you didn't have to be involved in any of this lmao. people will involve you whether you want them to or not.
I don't care about the label "proship" but that's what I got slapped with when I explained that "protecting children from dangerous media" via censorship is how conservatives frame the banning of queer people, and that tantrums over fiction don't help anyone, especially for harm over characters.
But don't believe my random online claims, check out actual research and papers done on the matter by the likes of @samaburime.bsky.social who's been tracking and working on this phenomenon (Also check out https://Fujoshi.net which contains a ton of great resources concerning the subject)
Proship= anti harassment aka don't like don't read, anti= pro harassment aka don't like, will insult/ doxx you, essentially.
Not exactly supposed to be smth significant, but antis have been harassing ppl for a while now, so it's become impossible to ignore, even for ppl minding their own Business.
I know people currently being harassed by proshippers and getting death threats because of a fandom server banning loli/shota content over a year ago due to ToS. They weren't even mods, they were just in the same server.
The problem w the labels is that anti was made to fit that definition by people who revendicate it (initially terfs on Tumblr) while proship was pushed on whomever and lots people were kind of forced in that stance. So the label has heterogeneous ppl using it, and the word was watered down over time
Agreed. Maybe it's a No True Scotsman situation, but I find some people who use that label are quite contradictory to what the term actually means. So people will use it to legitimize shitty behavior while many others who use the same term are against that behavior
by ppl who insist that it means "problematic."
Recently, due to an increased pushback, people who were way less eager to actually abide by the fandom term and etiquette of "ship and let ship", and more eager to stir trouble (anime fans, namely) adopted it without actually applying it at all.
The term has been bastardized to oblivion, if you will. But largely, it is what it stands for, and most of the ppl w the "proship" stance call these people out. But with the term being taken by anime fans, it's harder.
I don't personally care for discourse, but I find it interesting to observe ngl
Thats why you'll find a ton of racism, queer phobia and harassment with the subject of lolicons. It's because toxic, right wing anime fans are a huge part of it, while the rest of the ppl with the actual "proship" don't like don't read stance are usually in the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
But you're telling people the label means anti-harassment as a way to make your side look better when that's just not accurate anymore. I've seen tons of harassment on both sides.
This is a fair criticism. That is what the label is supposed to mean, but people don't always use it that way - often as a way to obfuscate the definition, and also as a way to legitimize shitty behavior under the umbrella of that term (even when the behavior contradicts the original definition)
I say it because it's the factual definition.
Yes, it's been watered down and people are trying to modify it, yes, there are bad actors who don't actually care Abt fandom etiquette. That's why a lot of people don't like the label or care for it, even when they'd qualify.
But it largely remains that.
Most of the people identifying as such either don't say it in fear of repercussions or simply stay in their corner of the internet, minding their own business. What you're talking about is essentially a loud minority.
It's not the factual definition anymore when there is factual evidence all over the internet of both sides harassing people, often people who have nothing to do with the discourse but are caught in the crossfire. Your whole argument is just a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
Easily my least favorite shift in fandom culture. Theres nuance. The point of fiction is to explore concepts in a safe space! Half the shit I love in fictional contexts, I wouldnt really be into irl.
Funniest thing about posts likes these is all the people who come in to explain how actually the side they're on is the reasonable one and the argument isn't reductive at all, it's just the evil meanies on the other side that are the problem!
If your point is that only those not aligned with either are enlightened with media literacy and someone's opinion (often in support of the perspectives outlined above) is inherently delegitimized by their stance, I'd argue this is also a very unnuanced way to see things.
What a meaningless reply that adds nothing to my statement and assumes I'm talking solely about fanfiction when I talk about media. Read any book from the adult section? Not sure how that'll make me change my mind that media analysis is important but ok 👍
Deeply funny to see the word media and have fanfiction be the first thing that comes to your mind, and then vaguely suggest the solution is to "read any adult book". I'm not even sure what point you're disagreeing with here. You think we need less nuanced media analysis? Worrisome
There's also ways for people to be a part of a group and criticize it while also pointing out oversimplifications or one-sided perspectives on the topic.
It was about specific comments made to this post that were trying to rewrite fandom drama to all be the other sides fault but yes if you totally remove my comment from its wider context it can probably mean whatever you want.
Well, it's not exclusively that one side is all evil and the other is all good, of course, but it is funny to see people try and make them out to be equally wrong while having opinions that generally align with those of a particular side.
Comments
"Anti" spaces is a cesspool of weird "fandom mom/dad" types who use their perceived safety and wholesomeness to try and date teenagers.
insanity truly
That's... not what you meant, is it?
Antiship: People who get really angry over other people consuming/enjoying a wide array of what they perceive as "problematic" content for any reason.
Proship: everyone else.
Proship: People who get really angry over other people not consuming/enjoying a wide array of what they perceive as "problematic" content for any reason.
Antiship: everyone else.
How easily this can be reversed and seem somewhat reasonable still shows how trash these terms are imo
Also somewhat this(?) Iunno doesn't feel fully applicable for this conversation
https://bsky.app/profile/regale.nekoweb.org/post/3lfpfp67lcs26
this is why you're getting the replies you're getting. you may feel like you said both sides are the same but you did the exact opposite
C'mon.
Some people might see pointing out a typo as moralising and shaming.
The difference is subjective.
The problem with being "anti" is that you think a characters canon age matters regardless of how they are portrayed, and become super moralistic over it.
I don't care about describing weird internet factions in a technically correct way when a large portion of the "discourse" actually does just boil down to this.
Antiship is a type of missile or torpedo.
No reason one can't be both things, really.
"On her brief, deadliy flight toward the destroyers, CX-1157 dreamed about Snape and Miss Frizzle..."
In my case, I don’t care about the relationships, I’m ace…
It was never about fanfiction. People in fandom spaces are upset about the fascist rhetoric, not the innocuous target of fanwork. "Antis" are a very weird kind of psyop with radfem and alt-right origins.
It's easy to take the "both sides" centrist stance, especially when the entire order shouldn't exist. I get that. But the mocking of something historically devastating is not great.
Gamergate was a major factor in how the right infiltrated men's hobbyist spaces and exploded alt right sentiments. Fash ideology is doing the same exact thing with puritanical ideology in fandom spaces.
Please look into this more.
Like are you responding to something specific?
I don't want these opinions I don't want to look like I'm taking a side because I think the other is worse they are both bad why can't we have non-reductive stances on things
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely agree that getting into real life politics/protesting/doing community help etc. are more important than
Yes, it's a culture war bs and yes, the "sides" are ridiculous. That being said, people who identify as "antis" are the ones who stole my personal photos because I supported an artist they hate and have harassed and even attempted IRL harm on others.
Not exactly supposed to be smth significant, but antis have been harassing ppl for a while now, so it's become impossible to ignore, even for ppl minding their own Business.
Recently, due to an increased pushback, people who were way less eager to actually abide by the fandom term and etiquette of "ship and let ship", and more eager to stir trouble (anime fans, namely) adopted it without actually applying it at all.
I don't personally care for discourse, but I find it interesting to observe ngl
Yes, it's been watered down and people are trying to modify it, yes, there are bad actors who don't actually care Abt fandom etiquette. That's why a lot of people don't like the label or care for it, even when they'd qualify.
But it largely remains that.
Did you guys even read what OP said?