the consensus for web dev / webapps is being "stateless" (all state resides in external dbs). meanwhile, "agentic" frameworks are very very stateful, with graphs of mutable objects spawning each other. are there established best-practices for scalabely deploying these to web? - ThreadSky

yoavgo.bsky.social • 67 days ago

the consensus for web dev / webapps is being "stateless" (all state resides in external dbs). meanwhile, "agentic" frameworks are very very stateful, with graphs of mutable objects spawning each other. are there established best-practices for scalabely deploying these to web?

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callin.cc•67 days ago

i haven’t really checked out agentic frameworks, but would the local-first web app paradigm fit this?

yoavgo.bsky.social•67 days ago

so all state is client side? but the frameworks are python.

callin.cc•67 days ago

generally it’s syncing all application state to local storage on first visit, and then sync back to the web server on a db level upon changes. i’m only familiar with js frameworks like electricSQL, but I believe it should be agnostic enough to handle python servers as well.

yoavgo.bsky.social•67 days ago

interesting. what is a realistic amount of state that can be maintained this way, and how does one handle version updates of the state objects?

callin.cc•67 days ago

depends a bit on the technology chosen for storage in the client. for the simplest storage mechanism - localStorage - it's about 10MB, but there are other solutions. but now you know just about as much as i do about this area :) https://localfirstweb.dev/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Storage_API/Storage_quotas_and_eviction_criteria

yoavgo.bsky.social•67 days ago

waay too small for me :(

yoavgo.bsky.social•67 days ago

(i can of course imagine solutions, but these all involve not using said frameworks and writing much more elaborate and much less flexible code)

kuza55.bsky.social•66 days ago

You generally want to put everything in a db and maybe layer an in memory cache over it for performance since that is the happy path for web dev.

The other extreme is single-tenant infra where you have an instance per customer and then do some orchestration of turning them on/off/persist state.

yoavgo.bsky.social•66 days ago

so this is the question, whats a good framework for persisting dynamic object graphs to db?

kuza55.bsky.social•66 days ago

I would probably default to postgres/redis with an edges table if you're using an LLM to walk the graph since the LLM will always be the bottleneck. If you're using code to walk the graph, it depends on the code and whether you can push it down into the db in some way.

yoavgo.bsky.social•66 days ago

its a graph of python objects holding pointers to each other. i can serialize them to pkl or json, of course, but not sure how to gracefully handle scope, lifetime, versioning, etc.

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