Shareable link to @carlzimmer.bsky.social article in NYTimes on serious concerns over mirror bacteria, published in Science today. www.nytimes.com/2024/12/12/s... - ThreadSky

relenski.bsky.social • 151 days ago

Shareable link to @carlzimmer.bsky.social article in NYTimes on serious concerns over mirror bacteria, published in Science today.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/12/science/a-second-tree-of-life-could-wreak-havoc-scientists-warn.html?unlocked_article_code=1.g04._mRB.Kx4Dht8HmT48&smid=url-share

Comments

chrisadami.bsky.social•151 days ago

Now we finally know what secret report you have been working on!

jtmeijer.bsky.social•151 days ago

On the one hand: yes, Grass by Sheri S Tepper went there decades ago if memory serves, on the other it feels too pessimistic.

relenski.bsky.social•151 days ago

Many in our group were reluctant, at first, to recommend halting line of basic research. But after considering the unprecedented risks vs minimal benefits, we were unanimous in our recommendation.
That said, we welcome more discussions. We're fortunate that the technology is still a ways off.

jtmeijer.bsky.social•151 days ago

I have no doubt your group is better aware of the intricacies of all systems involved than my in many aspects quite basic understanding of eg the immune system.
It will be interesting to read more, because a ways off feels optimistic if the risc assessment is correct.

brooklynkid53bskys.bsky.social•151 days ago

you are really to be commended

also: now that you can buy a desktop oligo synthesiszer for your lab, you could make things you and could think of, that you really (really) don't want people making . .

brooklynkid53bskys.bsky.social•151 days ago

The risk is very hi, so caution is warranted

but
you need about 5 million bp of reverse DNA and reverse ribosomes, tRNA, RNA polymerase, tRNA modifying enzymes etc etc to get this going ?

and once the cell starts dividing, what is it going to eat ?
it can't eat normal living things

brooklynkid53bskys.bsky.social•151 days ago

the mirror enzymes won't digest say regular proteins ?
etc
and unless this synthetic organism is like a cyanobacteria , it will have to make mirror image amino acids, mirror image biotin, mirror image hypusine etc etc

it will have to secrete mirror image siderophores to scavenge Iron, and it will

brooklynkid53bskys.bsky.social•151 days ago

lack mirror image beta lactamase to confer resistance to mirror image penicillin and etc etc

mutual-a.bsky.social•151 days ago

perhaps this question is stupid, but how hard would it be to genetically modify normal bacteria that can eat mirror bacteria?

brooklynkid53bskys.bsky.social•151 days ago

not enough of an expert to be confident, but probably not to hard

these papers suggest that such things already exist, although they work poorly, but if they exist, evolution can proceed pretty quickly sometimes

https://sites.tufts.edu/dpeptide172/mechanism/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1389172300889495

relenski.bsky.social•151 days ago

Problem is, even if natural enemies kill, they would not likely benefit much and thereby increase. That numerical response is how predators exert topdown control.

And even if somehow did control, by that point mirror cells would be established invaders and impossible to eliminate from environment.

relenski.bsky.social•151 days ago

We think very hard. Composition of mirror cells wrong nutrient-wise for most natural enemies (phages, amoebae, other bacteria), so even if they kill some mirror cells, they'd not gain advantage-might even be poisoned by mirror cells.

Discussed at length in tech report:
https://purl.stanford.edu/cv716pj4036

brooklynkid53bskys.bsky.social•151 days ago

If mirror cells lack, say, mirror beta lactamase, then they will be very sensitive to mirror penicillin . . ??

also, the original charon X 1774, from that guy in Alabama, had all sorts of crippling mutations, right ?

relenski.bsky.social•151 days ago

Yes, will take concerted effort to get 1st mirror cell booted up.

Some nutrients not chiral, could be exploited by mirror cells to gain foothold. If so, they'd grow, but likely evade parts of immune response and most predators.

Lots more on these issues in tech report
https://purl.stanford.edu/cv716pj4036

mmmmeier.bsky.social•151 days ago

Oh wow. Never really considered this... would the mirror bacteria find enough mirror-food to grow on in "our" world? Anyhow, this seems like a experiment to carry out on the Moon or somewhere in Deep Space. If anything goes wrong, well... you "nuke it from orbit".

relenski.bsky.social•151 days ago

Great question, discussed at length in tech report. Short answers, based on what we know:
Mirror bacteria would probably be poor competiitors, at least initially. BUT pop growth depends on growth vs death, and mirror bacteria would resist (many) immune defenses and preds. And they could evolve ...

zachhensel.bsky.social•150 days ago

What’s one example of an ecosystem in which a mirror organism would have a fitness advantage over the existing organism?

relenski.bsky.social•150 days ago

Mirror marine Prochlorococcus is one example. Little downside in terms of competitiveness, and resistant to protists and phages. Net positive growth allows invasion.

See Chapter 8 of technical report here:
https://purl.stanford.edu/cv716pj4036

zachhensel.bsky.social•150 days ago

Thank you. Something like this as an example makes the most sense. I don’t know enough to comment on the components and parameters of the model.

zachhensel.bsky.social•150 days ago

Hopefully the technocratic climate change solution folks don’t think a little hard (but not hard enough) about the implications of the model

creationdaniel.bsky.social•151 days ago

Fascinating and scary science 😬

postdiscipline.bsky.social•151 days ago

Stimulating expert commentary on cells engineered with reverse chirality. The science fiction writers must already be at work. If "Annihilation" presumed horror from jumping hox genes, what happens with engineered reverse chirality microbes?

relenski.bsky.social•151 days ago

Science arrticle: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.ads9158
Technical report:
https://purl.stanford.edu/cv716pj4036

meowmuir.bsky.social•151 days ago

I wish abstracts of this length were norm.

cyan0bacteria.bsky.social•150 days ago

Mirror autotrophs could easily get around any chiral growth substrate limitation.

relenski.bsky.social•150 days ago

Very true. We discuss at length in technical report.

lemaergue.bsky.social•151 days ago

Very curious to understand one point made in the article about the resistance of proteins made from D-AA to destruction by enzymes evolved to break down proteins/peptides made up of L-AA. Would this linitation also by true the other way around?

brooklynkid53bskys.bsky.social•151 days ago

what ever the theory is, it can't accurately predict how fast evolution will produce new proteins, eg a new L AA breakdown proteins might evolve into new proteins that can break down D AA proteins and vice verso

it is *really complex

relenski.bsky.social•151 days ago

To some extent, yes. Gets complicated quickly. Some amino acids and carbon sources not chiral, could be exploited by mirror bacteria to gain foothold. If so, they could grow, but likely evade parts of immune response and most predators.

Lots more in tech report:
https://purl.stanford.edu/cv716pj4036

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