You're welcome. I know many of you were crying out "Please write more about Hobbes" and "We desperately want to read about how violence arises from uncertainty in relations between two parties when no neutral arbiter is present." othermeans.io/p/the-state-... - ThreadSky

gravitysra1nbow.bsky.social • 20 days ago

You're welcome. I know many of you were crying out "Please write more about Hobbes" and "We desperately want to read about how violence arises from uncertainty in relations between two parties when no neutral arbiter is present."

https://othermeans.io/p/the-state-and-the-problem-of-uncertainty

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ems1944.bsky.social•20 days ago

1) It’s more complicated than that, no?There are ways to communicate intention, There are ways to determine objective.

It’s true all rights are secured by violence, just as it’s true countries have no “right” to exist, just the ability to defend., but if animals, who indubitably live in a state of

ems1944.bsky.social•20 days ago

2) nature can determine friend or foe, so, too, can men.

danielhaknsson.bsky.social•19 days ago

I think this more correct. Even in societies with little or very weak state people mostly act "normal". But there is of course much more space for rule-breakers and even elsewhere things escalate much easier when there is no constraints.

danielhaknsson.bsky.social•19 days ago

I guess in total absence of a society it could theoretically be different. But we are a societal species so I am not sure how that would occur other than under very artificial conditions. Like "lord of the flies" perhaps? With just boys of similar age, ability and status (at the beginning).

ems1944.bsky.social•19 days ago

As I mentioned to Masapo, & as James alluded earlier, time matters hugely. Any individual transaction might be worked out successfully sans violence. Over a larger period of time, the possibility of violence increases, if only because the probability of encountering unrestrained aggression increases

masaigu.bsky.social•20 days ago

i mean wild animals screw this up constantly too, non-domesticated species of animals will often freak out and revert to instinct when in unfamiliar surroundings, a docile and affectionate pet might suddenly try to bite you and hide under furniture after running into a new room

masaigu.bsky.social•20 days ago

my pet rats love me and like to wrestle with my toes but when i take them to an unfamiliar place like first time vet visit they freaked the fuck out and tried to bite anything near them. I even saw lots of dogs and cats freaking out at the vet when their carriers were opened

masaigu.bsky.social•20 days ago

in some way i think most people without training/special education, when confronted with distressing or fear inducing situations often revert to instinct and just try to throw everything at the wall to make the problem causing them fear/anxiety to go away, with wide variety of diff behaviors

ems1944.bsky.social•19 days ago

1) Some may. most don't. Your experiences with your animals doesn't come close to reflecting mine. I've had 10 dogs in my life. All were friendly from inception. Two could be reactive on leash, but only occasionally. They could read, as humans can with other humans, basic body

gravitysra1nbow.bsky.social•20 days ago

I mean, there's no way to secure what that intention means between two parties when there isn't a clear way to engage in trust building. Absent a mechanism to enable mutually intelligible interactions, it feels difficult to see how it arises with any permanence or universality

ems1944.bsky.social•20 days ago

1) It is difficult. Cooperative endeavor mean risk. Also, you introduced temporal concerns, which makes things more complicated.

Since man, however, isnt
in a state of nature, it means the problem is solvable,at least transiently, QED.

ems1944.bsky.social•20 days ago

2) You have, however, fairly well described how a narcissistic sociopath must behave, i.e. transactionally because trust and cooperation seem inherently untrustworthy.

gravitysra1nbow.bsky.social•20 days ago

I mean, sure, the solution was the State

ems1944.bsky.social•20 days ago

Yes, but I wasn’t being flip. That demonstrates as soon as threats were recognized, people reacted appropriately. it undermines the state of nature argument.

People have brains. They can interpret and react. Put another way, as soon as people had consciousness, they exited a state of nature.

kenmegalopsuxos.bsky.social•20 days ago

You just described the final two seasons of The Sopranos

gravitysra1nbow.bsky.social•20 days ago

But that's not true. Tony wins.

kenmegalopsuxos.bsky.social•20 days ago

David Chase has always hinted that he gets clipped in the final scene as a consequence of the war. He's more open about it today.

gravitysra1nbow.bsky.social•20 days ago

Well maybe David Chase should have included that in the episode if he wanted me to believe him tbh

kenmegalopsuxos.bsky.social•20 days ago

His reasoning was that plotting it out would have been uninteresting, and instead wanted to render it to be both about how Tony's moment with his family is what lasts forever, and him looking over his shoulder too lasts forever.

rokrish98.bsky.social•19 days ago

>sees hockey team lose yet another ECF
>reads this article
Damn maybe hobbes was right about the state of nature

stevenightlark.bsky.social•19 days ago

I do like Calvin and Hobbes. Tigers are cool.

chicagomike.bsky.social•20 days ago

So, the Purge? Is that what we are looking forward to?

roguellm.bsky.social•19 days ago

Of course, the Leviathan is the system we all agree to, so that we can have some idea of what the baseline is. A standard you can measure your fellow man against.

It may not always benefit us personally, but it allows some order in the chaos.

A great way to frame Hobbes James, good stuff

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