There was a discussion on insta about why uk publishing has made slower progress in terms of representation than the US. Been pondering this. What do you think? #KidLitUK - ThreadSky

louiestowell.bsky.social • 61 days ago

There was a discussion on insta about why uk publishing has made slower progress in terms of representation than the US. Been pondering this. What do you think? #KidLitUK

Reposted from Diana Sousa

Today is the first #WeNeedDiverseBooksDay!

I'm going to be sharing some of the diverse books and graphic novels I've read and enjoyed lately! Please feel free to join in and share some of yours as well.

More info: www.diversebooks.org/celebrate-we...

Comments

rozkaveney.bsky.social•61 days ago

The chilling effect of the Press Campaign against diversity in kidlit that led to Clause 28.

No one wants to be monstered by the Mail

rozkaveney.bsky.social•61 days ago

Also, a lot of posh slightly Conservative people like the man in Pan Macmillan who stopped an editor at Picador publishing TINY PIECES OF SKULL in 89 saying 'you've been publishing too many quasi experimental books about sexual deviants'.

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

Fucking hell roz

rozkaveney.bsky.social•61 days ago

I'm sure there were other reasons why I had to wait three decades to get that book published. My feud with Carmen probably didn't help

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

Yeah. I know trans authors who are too scared to do school visits. And it is a wholly reasonable fear.

matthewpb.bsky.social•61 days ago

It’s a less diverse country?

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

In the context of children’s publishing, I’m not sure it is. children’s publishing in England is behind on even native demos of white working class, rural, Northern, neighbours; Irish, Welsh, Scottish. There seems to be a bit of a London class in of itself that publishes what pleases it.

matthewpb.bsky.social•60 days ago

I was talking about the country!

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

I mean the UK is so far behind any type of variation in demos at all,
period, not comparing to the US. Before one throws any actual diversity at the UK children’s landscape. It’s almost not worth comparing, we haven’t even got the basics down yet of anything significant outside of the M25.

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

I think that's part of it for sure - but I think there's an attitude difference too, hard to put my finger on it but a stasis...the intersection of race and class plays into it.

matthewpb.bsky.social•61 days ago

Being diverse (“the melting pot”) has always been central to US identity. Plus the histories of slavery, massacre of Natives, large Latin population etc create an intense demand for diversity. So I understand wanting to criticise your own country but tbf the US is quite unique when it comes to this.

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

The UK is an expert in brushing its past sins under the carpet - the focus on "we ended slavery" not why it needed ending...cos we were slavers. The fact that our colonialism wasn't "at home", we didn't settlercolonise as our homelandd, so many (not well) hidden horrors. The curriculum doesn't help

matthewpb.bsky.social•61 days ago

Yes I was just about to say: America’s big injustices against non-white people tended to happen within its own borders, whereas Britain’s occurred in the colonies. So in the US, the people who were wronged are *still there*, demanding justice.

matthewpb.bsky.social•61 days ago

I also think it’s significant that the most significant migrant ethnic minority in Britain used to be the Irish, who have since been assimilated almost out of existence as an identity

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

I mean, people wronged by our state live here too - the windrush generation, generation after generation of migrants from colonies... but we do stuff like destroy their records.

galleristocrat.bsky.social•61 days ago

Do you mean in terms of the profession? Which as a whole is not bad, but I suspect is more white, middle class and privately educated as you go up the management chain? Or authorship? Or character representation? Or readership? Or all of them?! https://www.publishers.org.uk/publications/uk-publishing-workforce-diversity-inclusion-and-belonging-in-2024/

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

Thinking about representation in books/authorship but also how staff are treated and whether staff of colour and other minoritised groups get promoted - I've seen so much racism and classism in the industry, and of course that feeds into the books.

matthewpb.bsky.social•61 days ago

I’ve heard stories of anti-Irish discrimination in British publishing that would blow your mind. Which is not suggestive of an industry that would be very hospitable to people of colour.

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

YUP!!!! While I'm talking about toxic politeness there's nothing polite about the racism and discrimination in publishing. It's just that they smile while doing it.

alomshaha.bsky.social•61 days ago

My experience as a “poc” is that class is a much bigger issue. Obviously, this is all intersectional.

nickabadzis.bsky.social•60 days ago

Not having the right accent or having a weird, foreign surname and therefore any suggestions not being taken seriously. My career might’ve gone better had I not insisted on portraying the world I see, the one I live in, not the one they’d like it to be.

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

If I was to give a take on it children’s publishing and writing is turning into a career for those who can afford to go into it, even more so with diverse writers. The there’s the journey of ‘making it’. If diverse writing is anything like diverse job applications then writers have to have thick..

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

skin enough to apply to more than your non diverse writer. How many agents are there in the UK? Once you’ve had a no as a writer, are you going to go back and try again if you aren’t sure? Ok say you do, for what? An income that won’t cover basic living costs? Then there is the other side,

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

How many diverse agents are there? How many diverse publishers? TGLA folded. I know of a black founded agency who was taken on by one of the larger ones post Covid. She had a success but now isn’t agenting. Which is a shame. Do these agents fold because publishing won’t take them on, when they do

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

Do they low ball the contracts? I don’t know.
But I’d love to see more money been thrown at some rebellious diversely owned publishers and agents. This is what the US does do well. Some grass root indie publishers and agents. Also, visible diverse affluent class. We have it, we just don’t see it.

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

I didn't know that the US put focus on small publishers, I'd assumed it was all about the big five (without knowing anything lol), interesting!

kderbyshire.bsky.social•60 days ago

I wouldn't say the US "focuses" on small publishers -- the Big Five are very big! -- but since the overall market is so large, even a small niche can support a thriving business. Lots of small presses are run by and for the publisher's own community.

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

Yes! Thrice yes! I don’t get it but I do a bit. They have indie presses owned by diverse owners and diverse agents which helps.

mirandaemmerson.bsky.social•60 days ago

1) Publishing is very posh and quite a closed world. 2)I think it wants its black and Asian writers to write about race but then gets tired and a bit resentful of having to publish ‘so many’ books about race. 3)It’s almost impossible to earn a living writing and that limits who can afford to write.

lydiamassiah.bsky.social•60 days ago

Remuneration for writers; publishers & agents requiring an extremely high level of polish from manuscripts - so writers often already having done courses, MAs etc; maybe more perceived opportunities in film/TV scripts??

celestineandthehare.com•60 days ago

Probably cos people can’t afford to write as a career

gralefrit.bsky.social•60 days ago

There’s less money in a smaller market, and almost no salaried jobs available as a writer, so people from insecure or non-wealthy backgrounds don’t last long in the UK writing industry. It’s not a job-job. That applies in publishing as well as telly etc.

gralefrit.bsky.social•60 days ago

And, yes, the corporate culture is imported from the US, so the level of polish expected from spare-time freelancers being paid peanuts or not paid at all is now insane.

gralefrit.bsky.social•60 days ago

Whenever I’m talking to students and new writers, this is the big block. There’s no easy way to go from talented and enthusiastic to “making a living” without having that huge leap underwritten by something else; existing wealth or another job. That really screws diversity for working people.

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

I had another job for almost 20 years while writing on the side before becoming a full time writer. I do think what might have been if I'd been able to afford to just write all that time!

alicebrockway.bsky.social•60 days ago

It applies to pretty much all creative work in the UK. Presumably a big part of why it’s such a profitable sector.

gfrancie.bsky.social•60 days ago

I have another suspicion. There is a misguided belief that the "majority" (white middle class) won't like/get another point of view/experience. Which is silly for multiple reasons.

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

YUP. Cos they'll only like/get things that are bloody published and well marketed!!!

gfrancie.bsky.social•60 days ago

I used to sell children's books, and my first job was working in a really great library in a rural area that had heavy use by kids. Kids are genuinely up for anything. The world is new and there is so much in it for them. Also as a former advertising person, I can tell you, anything can be sold.

gfrancie.bsky.social•60 days ago

In some ways, (I say this as someone not born here) there isn't quite the same sort of ambition/honest talk. Yes, there are bright spots and interesting brief shifts that then retreat.

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

Honest talk? How very dare you <-- this is very much the attitude yup. Honesty and directness are (unspokenly) disapproved of.

moali.bsky.social•61 days ago

I should write a children's book now just to be annoying

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

Writing out of spite creates all the best work I think.

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

Discussion was between @dhonielle.bsky.social and @clairelinney.bsky.social but didn't wanna tag them into the first post so they'd get spammed with all the replies! #KidLItUK

clairelinney.bsky.social•60 days ago

Also I think it’s important to note when people think - we don’t have the diversity the US has - 37% of primary schools are not white in the U.K. and when you compare that to the representation we currently have it’s wild.

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

Where is this stat from?

82% of the greater population identifies as white and 74.4% is white British.

Thanks

clairelinney.bsky.social•60 days ago

Government website on the racial makeup of primary schools. 37% of primary school children my comment should have said

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

Interesting.
Thanks

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

I remember when I was still in publishing 5 years ago the figure was 33%, so publishing is falling even further behind!

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

Mind you I'm sceptical about anything that tries to say we should link representation to numerical populations because under-told stories need to be told more because of the power imbalances, and because so much harm is to be undone.

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

Also, given our colonial past and how many territories read British books for pleasure in the English language, it would seem a bit nuts to dismiss racial diversity on just British numbers alone. I’m sure British Indian books could pull in decent sales in India, America and Australasia.

tobebooks.bsky.social•60 days ago

This is only racial. British children’s publishing is behind on every demo I can come up with.

There was a report released during lockdown which interviewed people in publishing anonymously and some of their opinions didn’t match what we seen in the school library sector in reading demos.

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

English language export markets are definitely considerable! There's a whole team that works on export in most publishers (or international sales, whatever they happen to call it).

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

In that I think "our population is x per cent Black" can easily become "so we don't need to tell any more stories than that %". It's so often used as a ceiling not a floor for representation.

pjcanningauthor.bsky.social•59 days ago

It plays to the assumption that Black authors write 'Black books' as opposed to books anyone might be interested in reading about whatever an individual author wants to write about.

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

Yeah when we're looking at children's books, that's the figure to look at, not overall population!

pgbellwriter.bsky.social•61 days ago

I suspect a key factor is the same one that lies at the root of most of Britain's social woes: class.

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

Class has a stranglehold and it intersects with race in a way that makes that stranglehold harder to...whatever you do when you get rid of a stranglehold. Unstrangle?

weimingkam.bsky.social•61 days ago

Deeply conservative and haunted country that keeps the colonies and its consequences out as much as possible

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

NOTHING TO SEE HERE. NO CONSEQUENCES. Here we pay the slavers back and then congratulate ourselves about it!

weimingkam.bsky.social•61 days ago

The denial is genuinely so disturbing 💀 Anyway, in addition to that slightly glib response, the weirdness around money and class is also a factor, plus directness being considered impolite

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

YES the toxic politeness in publishing and in the uk in general is vast and tentacled.

gabriellekent.bsky.social•61 days ago

Toxic politeness is a great way of putting it. And the class snobbery… I remember standing in a publisher boardroom trying to smile and not reinforce ‘bolshy northerner’ stereotypes while a director smirked ‘Ah, yes, Middlesbrough. Full of smog, isn’t it’ and everyone at the table smiled pityingly.

gitaralleigh.bsky.social•61 days ago

So much to say – but not on social media!
I think the fight has been long and wearying in the US too – look at the recent backlash with book bans etc. Let's not forget this editorial by the great Walter Dean Myers was only published in 2014 – I remember reading it: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/opinion/sunday/where-are-the-people-of-color-in-childrens-books.html

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

Oh yeah not to say it's easy in the states just that we've performed worse within publishing (and we're getting the book bans now too...)

danwhitehead.net•61 days ago

KEEP CALM
and
CARRY ON
(publishing books
by people who
look like you)

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

The tweeness of that phrase feels apposite to publishing. So many racism flavour cupcakes.

danwhitehead.net•61 days ago

"We'd LOVE to offer a more diverse catalogue but *gestures at sales for books by diverse authors that received minimal support and marketing* hashtag BLM sadface emoji x 5"

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

"We are bad at our jobs so we blame Black writers"

danwhitehead.net•61 days ago

"We signed them! What more do you want?"

dhonielle.bsky.social•60 days ago

Do you think bc Americans are culturally fussy, we’ve been able to make more progress? I really want to understand the hurdles.

danwhitehead.net•61 days ago

Basically, "not making a fuss" is the British superpower and so while there are occasional flurries of interest in diversity, it's a lot like middle class people getting into sourdough baking during lockdown. A feel-good diversion that was easily abandoned when normality beckons.

scientits.bsky.social•60 days ago

Yes, also I feel the UK has a real ‘know your place’ kind of attitude, whereas the US sees success as something to be chased, won and celebrated

This country dislikes success as a whole, it’s one of the biggest differences I’ve noticed

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

YUP. Tall poppy syndrome is rife here!

eddierobson.bsky.social•60 days ago

Like "it's gauche to discuss money" this is something people across British society have internalised and believe makes them more down-to-earth, but is actually there to benefit those at the top of the tree.

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

YES. I am always here to talk about writing and money if anyone wants. But I'm still weirdly scared to do it in public in case I...get into trouble I guess??

danwhitehead.net•60 days ago

This is definitely a British trait, but I also don't think it's unique to UK publishing. There was a fairly large rumble in the comics industry recently - which is almost entirely US-based - in which some people working for Marvel, DC etc revealed their page rates, which was previously taboo.

gralefrit.bsky.social•60 days ago

Yeah! I’ve done a few live events where afterwards some of the new writers have thanked me in the pub for being the only person on the panel to talk about the job as a job, and discuss money. It’s a taboo. And it benefits people who don’t have money as an issue.

andreamann.bsky.social•60 days ago

All this. A (half-American) friend and I often talk about “channelling your inner American” when it comes to trying to talk more openly about our successes and ambitions (and money!)

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

My American wife talks about "going american on their asses". I've yet to perform this myself enough tho...

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

Yes - no real change, only a change of top layer, a costume.

danwhitehead.net•61 days ago

But if there's SYSTEMIC change then that makes it harder to hire our uni chums! And that wouldn't be fair! Why do you want to be unfair?

pjcanningauthor.bsky.social•59 days ago

Those post-BLM debuts failed as most debuts do. The UK pub industry seem oddly fatalistic about debut fails, but want reasons why that isn't lack of marketing. I suspect author backgrounds got blamed. That leads to truisms about the market that stop books being commissioned from similar authors.

louiestowell.bsky.social•59 days ago

ALL OF THIS

sflayzell.bsky.social•61 days ago

There's also a lot of snobbery about the types of books that are by their nature more diverse, such as biographies and nonfiction about footballers. (Or to paraphrase Marina Hyde, what is it about young Black working-class millionaires that the UK establishment finds so objectionable?)

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

Also genre fiction!

sflayzell.bsky.social•61 days ago

As someone said upthread the US is more diverse and the audience is there. There's a longer history of Black-led publishing and prizes like the Coretta Scott-King. But there's soo much covert (& overt) racism in the UK. It's more worthwhile imo to buy direct from publishers like Knights Of & Formy.

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

ooh wait I have one of their books! Just hadn't noticed the publisher name!

louiestowell.bsky.social•61 days ago

ooh I don't know Formy! Will look them up. (And yes knights of have been doing great work)

mxfrankduffy.bsky.social•60 days ago

Been thinking about this & one thing that strikes me from an illustration perspective is an attitude of "you want to draw pictures for a living? that's not a real job & you don't deserve to be paid for it" that exists in society & that a lot of newbies internalise...

mxfrankduffy.bsky.social•60 days ago

& so people do work "for exposure" &, as has been pointed out elsewhere in these replies, either you need to be working other jobs which eat up time & energy or you need support from somewhere, & the people who have access to that support are generally middle-class white folk

mxfrankduffy.bsky.social•60 days ago

& there's very little info out there about what rates you should be charging, even from the AOI, when you actually get offered work by a publisher it's tempting to snap it up, rather than arguing for a better deal. I've been offered work from a HUGE publisher...

mxfrankduffy.bsky.social•60 days ago

that would have ended up being less than minimum wage, as a freelancer (so obvs I have to cover my own sick pay, holiday pay, pension, admin costs). Told them to go fuck themselves. Learnt later that it is their standard practice & they're famed for it.

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

👀 yeesh

clareweze.bsky.social•60 days ago

Watching and reading and nodding along with you - not sure it's safe to do much else without getting myself proper cancelled...

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

Feels like there are so many discssuions that would be better had in person, with chatham house rules of "no mentioning outside this group" for proper openness!

nickabadzis.bsky.social•60 days ago

👆👏

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

I said nothing I was never here....

clairelinney.bsky.social•60 days ago

That would be great. At least I have the benefit of having no hands that feed me so I can bite away with relative impunity! 🤣

louiestowell.bsky.social•60 days ago

CHOMP

clairelinney.bsky.social•60 days ago

🤣

clareweze.bsky.social•60 days ago

😁

clareweze.bsky.social•60 days ago

Yes!😬

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