Cornell engineering prof: "Oh, so you cover the #EV world? Total dead end. Hydrogen cars are about to come into their own." Me: "Why do you say that?" Him: "Carrying around 1,000 lbs of excess weight is absurd. Hydrogen is the answer; Toyota + BMW have solved it." (1 of 2) - ThreadSky

johnvoelcker.bsky.social • 11 days ago

Cornell engineering prof: "Oh, so you cover the #EV world? Total dead end. Hydrogen cars are about to come into their own."

Me: "Why do you say that?"

Him: "Carrying around 1,000 lbs of excess weight is absurd. Hydrogen is the answer; Toyota + BMW have solved it."

(1 of 2)

Comments

matt-lat.bsky.social•8 days ago

None of the people who think hydrogen is the answer actually own a hydrogen car because it's extremely impractical. Meanwhile, many people who think BEVs are the answer actually own one and can speak from personal experience as to why they're better.

johnvoelcker.bsky.social•11 days ago

(2 of 2)

Me: "I never had doubts auto engineers can make a fuel-cell stack + H2 tanks that package neatly + safely into a car.

"BUT, you need a fueling network to supply gaseous H2 at 700 bar, to civilians. If we think #EV charging networks are hard, that is gonna be REALLY tough."

Him: "Ummmm."

templetonpeck.bsky.social•11 days ago

Not to mention battery technology is right at the crossing of two important, milestones to move from late-early adopters and into early mass-adoption: $100/kWh and 500 Wh/kg.

At between 800-1000 Wh/kg, they surpass gas vehicles in efficiency because of the electric motors.

ben-wojdyla.bsky.social•11 days ago

About the only arm of the transportation universe I can see adopting hydrogen in any significant way is OTR trucking. Every truck passes through the same 50-75 freeway interchanges, makes network build-out pretty straightforward.

russellfrost.bsky.social•11 days ago

It’s always the same dialogue. Since like
2005.

feranick.bsky.social•11 days ago

Besides, even if it were possible who exactly is going to create that infrastructure? Neither Toyota nor BMW. And it won't build itself. The economics isn't there, something engineering academics (I am one of them) can fully fathom.

johnvoelcker.bsky.social•10 days ago

Verbatim quote from Toyota exec, asked some years ago about the challenges of Mirai sales:

"It would be much easier for us if a fueling network manifested itself."

Because fueling networks just spontaneously "manifest" themselves ...

feranick.bsky.social•10 days ago

This is in fact very entrenched with corporate culture. The c-level exec care about being on top, marketing, but that creates a culture where the tech folks actually believe the hype....

feranick.bsky.social•10 days ago

Plenty of discussion I had with such people were absolutely ungrounded, and yet they truly believe in the hype. It is not surprising that the most vocal proponents are Germans or Japanese, where verticality of the decision structure basically set the course.

feranick.bsky.social•10 days ago

Exactly. This is why manufacturers invested in H2 are all about the hype. BMW working since 1986 is a good example. This is a way to show tech leadership (to justify higher prices) when they were beaten in EV.

vdivanov.bsky.social•11 days ago

This is why we should tax professors 🤪

burnsf.bsky.social•10 days ago

Let's face it, H2 has some advantages. But not surprisingly, John is right---infrastructure a huge issue.

To me, advantages: 1) Can store intermittent electric energy (read solar). 2) Is light weight
Disadvantages: 1) Volume! 2) Hindenburg fear in populace 3)Handling high-pressure gas/liquid

justinhyde.bsky.social•8 days ago

You probably saw the same pitch I did about 15 years ago that really it’s not that many stations, and ~80% of the U.S. population could be within ~30 miles of a H2 station for the low, low cost of $10 billion.

dancarney.bsky.social•8 days ago

Yep, GM made that case compellingly. And since then we've seen the tiny H2 fueling network in California shrink.

johnvoelcker.bsky.social•8 days ago

IIRC, it was ~ 15,000 stations if "every one is optimally sited."

Note that respected longtime contact Britta Gross was behind a lot of that very, very challenging effort ... and is now with the Electric Power Research Institute's Electric Transportation group, aka #EV R+D for electric utilities.

garygastelu.bsky.social•8 days ago

Wait a minute!

Everyone has water -- AKA: H20 -- in their home.

BRB, gotta design something ...

drewdraws2.bsky.social•11 days ago

I DO have doubts about the packaging as well as the fueling. Are EVs perfect? Far from it. Is H2 the answer? No.

vdivanov.bsky.social•11 days ago

Is hydrogen the answer to anything, say aviation? Because even for orbital launches the winning fuel is methane, not hydrogen.

hypx.bsky.social•11 days ago

Methane is a fossil fuel currently. Hydrogen will end up powering most of transportation, either directly or in the form of e-fuels.

hypx.bsky.social•11 days ago

Hydrogen is the answer for transportation, either directly or in the form of e-fuels.

aaronmw.bsky.social•11 days ago

I don't know if I'd call it "neatly." It's more like, they can shove big cylindrical tanks into a vehicle, but then you have large vehicles being categorized as sub-compacts.

johnvoelcker.bsky.social•11 days ago

Oh, like 4,700-pound 300-mile #EV "compact SUVs" ??

awjayramey.bsky.social•11 days ago

Huh, yeah. Turns out, one would need hydrogen stations too to make this work.

ecodweeb.bsky.social•10 days ago

Old myths die hard. Folks still think the south will rise, too.

johnvoelcker.bsky.social•10 days ago

We are still fighting the Civil War, some say.

ecodweeb.bsky.social•10 days ago

And in the face of every light duty hydrogen fuel cell station closing in the united states, some still think that hydrogen has a future here outside of class 8.

johnvoelcker.bsky.social•10 days ago

It is not the case that "every" light-duty hydrogen fueling station in the U.S. has closed.

As of this morning, slightly more than 3 dozen are still open in California:
https://m.h2fcp.org/

ecodweeb.bsky.social•10 days ago

So only Shell exited the game then?

johnvoelcker.bsky.social•10 days ago

TBH, I haven't followed the specific networks. They're just not a factor in zero-emission vehicles at scale any more.

newscoulomb.bsky.social•11 days ago

An automotive design and engineering concept a lot of folk can't wrap their heads around is that while lighter is better (for many reasons), autos face more volumetric than gravimetric constraints. Throw in cost and complexity, and suddenly BEVs are far superior to HFCV in 3 out of 4 key metrics.

hypx.bsky.social•11 days ago

LOL no. If that was true, SUVs and pick-ups wouldn't be popular at all.

newscoulomb.bsky.social•11 days ago

You don't seem to have understood my comment. Volume, regardless of platform, is always the most limited resource as far as automotive chassis and power train design are concerned. Your point about the popularity of SUVs and trucks actually proves my point: Consumers value space.

hypx.bsky.social•11 days ago

Have you seen an SUV or pick-up truck lately? There is plenty of room for hydrogen storage.

newscoulomb.bsky.social•11 days ago

All you're saying is that those vehicles have room to spare, but that has nothing to do with my point, which is how much of that space the power train requires.

hypx.bsky.social•11 days ago

Hydrogen needs less room than batteries to store the same amount of energy. It isn't really a concern at all.

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