Ichiro changed how baseball is played, reducing his career to WAR feels erroneous, sports is a narrative business - ThreadSky

nameshiv.bsky.social • 36 days ago

Ichiro changed how baseball is played, reducing his career to WAR feels erroneous, sports is a narrative business

Meh. Ichiro is definitely overrated (career 107 OPS+, only two 6 WAR seasons), but he’s still clearly a Hall of Famer. Similar to Jeter in that way.

Comments

30helensagree.bsky.social•35 days ago

I can't really accept that someone who calls Ichiro "overrated" has ever watched a baseball game in his goddamn life

juniperfizz.bsky.social•36 days ago

I knew who he was even though I only really follow hockey. That's a legit way to think about how he transcends baseball with his play. I can't tell if he should be the Hall but the conversation is fascinating.

ggkrishnamoomoo.bsky.social•36 days ago

If he’s clearly a HOFer how is he overrated? Do people rate him beyond being a HOFer?

berzerkyzman.bsky.social•35 days ago

Some clown didn't think so.

nameshiv.bsky.social•35 days ago

The thing about the internet is no matter the take there's someone who genuinely believes it and someone who doesnt believe it at all but says it anyway to be cool and like 95% of the time there's no way to tell which is which

russbengtson.bsky.social•36 days ago

advanced stats are useful for recognizing greatness where it may not be readily apparent, if you use them to *diminish* greatness where it *is* readily apparent you are a dimwitted dipshit

mburchett.bsky.social•36 days ago

Wakes Up

Cracks knuckles

Logs on

"Yeah. Ichiro is not a Hall Of Famer*"

*Ichiro career hit .311 with 3k hits

mcmjolnir.bsky.social•36 days ago

Just throwing Terrence Long out at third was enough to know he was a special player.

And then he spent *years* cranking out base hits like a ticking clock.

I'm biased tho, saw him break the hit record back in '04.

mburchett.bsky.social•36 days ago

Dude that throw

mburchett.bsky.social•36 days ago

I kind of think of Ichiro as baseball's Kareem. Pure fluidity and numbers every night.

mcmjolnir.bsky.social•36 days ago

Fantastically graceful player. No doubt.

luimnea.bsky.social•36 days ago

I’m but an immigrant here but every time he stepped to the plate it was riveting. A menace.

illimij.bsky.social•36 days ago

Pull the sleeve.

flentrop.bsky.social•35 days ago

I was not even successful in Little League. So I'll leave the analysis to you guys.

doktorzoom.bsky.social•36 days ago

WAR! Huh! What is it good for?

gordos52.bsky.social•36 days ago

Absolutely nothin'.

chengdubrew.bsky.social•36 days ago

But also, how many players in the live ball era managed a 9 WAR season with less than 10 homers? I don't think it will ever be done again...

mjmelancon.bsky.social•35 days ago

We know outright that external perceptions of a player can absolutely hurt their Hall chances beyond their stats (Bonds) so it's entirely reasonable that it should also be able to help.

willoughby4471.bsky.social•36 days ago

Ichiro in America is mid

dagchley.bsky.social•36 days ago

that's a simplistic view. ichiro's impact on baseball is undeniable, and war is a valuable metric that accurately quantifies his on-field contributions. narrative can't justify ignoring data-driven analysis.

big-richie-thunder.bsky.social•36 days ago

Really, by having a lower career WAR, OBP, and OPS than Lou Whitaker?

yoohootom.bsky.social•35 days ago

I watched firsthand the terror in the eyes of two of the best fielders in history (Vizquel and Alomar) every time he was at the plate. Legend.

regularnormalchick.bsky.social•36 days ago

Also like, all of his counting stats need to be weighted. He started at 27

eyepatchguy.bsky.social•36 days ago

Let's say we accept this premise that WAR is a be-all, end-all (it isn't) or that it can categorize every type of player (it can't, it doesn't know how to deal with slap hitters and catchers). Even if those things were true (again, they aren't) this is still the dumbest, most cherry-picked shit

eyepatchguy.bsky.social•36 days ago

*Technically* yes, he only had two 6 WAR seasons (after coming over at age 27). But those two seasons combined involved 17 WAR between them, and he also had four more seasons of 5.3+ WAR. Even if you accept this bullshit argument, he's still a Hall of Famer!

tomscud.bsky.social•36 days ago

he's 100 percent a hall of famer even on the raw numbers and you also really have to account for the fact that he would have had at least 3 more major league seasons.

eyepatchguy.bsky.social•36 days ago

There's no universe in which he isn't a Hall of Famer. Career .311 average, 3000 hits, took down an unbreakable record (single season hits), 1400 runs, 500 SB on an 81.3%, an MVP, 10 Gold Gloves. By nearly any metric you'd care to name he's probably the second-best leadoff hitter ever after Rickey

eyepatchguy.bsky.social•36 days ago

Getting 3,000 hits after only debuting in MLB at age 27 is an achievement I still have trouble wrapping my head around. that legitimately should not be a thing that is possible to achieve

tomscud.bsky.social•36 days ago

just incredible durability. look at say jose altuve, who had a nice little string of 200 hit seasons going, to see how hard that is to keep up.

tomscud.bsky.social•36 days ago

like i'm a stat nerd from the days when the baseball prospectus people were still posting their shit on https://rec.sport.baseball and the worst i can say about ichiro is that even giving him full credit for his japanese career he probably isn't a top 15 player

randallsd.bsky.social•36 days ago

I don't watch baseball, but a quick glance at his Wiki page shows a lot of "set records" and awards and the like. Feels like a professional athlete setting multiple records and still managing to produce high levels of play in his 40s is an HOFer in any sport.

eyepatchguy.bsky.social•36 days ago

Not all records are created equal...which is why it's important to note that one of those records (the single season hits record) was considered unbreakable for goddamned near a century

eyepatchguy.bsky.social•36 days ago

If you break a "well there's no way that's ever falling because it was set before 1930" record that's worth like ten other records put together

pointaustin.bsky.social•35 days ago

This obsession with imaginary numbers is primarily about sportswriters pretending to be superior to the people they're covering, via insider expertise. Same phenomenon in literary criticism, similarly vainglorious.

darthtraban.bsky.social•35 days ago

Baited by the jaded never works out

andrewschnell51.bsky.social•36 days ago

If anything he is underrated. Anytime he put the ball in play he had a chance for a hit. He legged out so many infield singles. And just his presence in the outfield prevented runs because no one wanted to test his arm.

garik16.bsky.social•36 days ago

It’s the hall of “fame” not the hall of players who had the best performances in MLB alone.

rokrish98.bsky.social•36 days ago

Its like people who say Jackie Robinson is overrated.

Both of these guys missed the best offensive years of their careers and still had HOF careers. If Ichiro debuted at 21 instead of 27 he'd have more WAR. The man put up cartoon numbers in the NPB.

eyepatchguy.bsky.social•36 days ago

Anyone who does the first thing is just a garden variety racist looking to confirm their priors

eyepatchguy.bsky.social•36 days ago

FFS Jackie *averaged* 6 WAR for a fucking decade! Even the numbers *without* context are "this guy is a no-doubt inner circle Hall of Famer"

connecticut-yankee.bsky.social•36 days ago

Speaking as someone that did, you can't appreciate Derek Jeter unless you watched him play every day. While I didn't watch Ichiro every day, my sense of him was similar. Numbers do not tell the whole story.

mattybags.bsky.social•35 days ago

Advanced metric baseball contrarianism is so fun. It’s like, sure, his bFART lagged a little, but Scott Podsednik won a World Series and Ichiro never did. Checkmate.

prutherford77.bsky.social•35 days ago

How did Ichiro change the game? The fact is the game moved away from his style to have much more emphasis on power and OBP when he was playing.

nameshiv.bsky.social•35 days ago

are you seriously arguing that Ichiro's OBP was not good?

prutherford77.bsky.social•35 days ago

His OBP is good but not great at 588th all time and not close to being good enough to say he changed the game to become more focused on OBP instead of AVG.

nameshiv.bsky.social•35 days ago

single season hit record and 10 200+ hit seasons my guy, you should stop

prutherford77.bsky.social•35 days ago

Baseball moved from overvaluing singles to XBH and Ichiro had no power. A 40 HR player is much more valuable than 200 hits with no power. That is what the game has moved towards. If Ichiro changed how the game is played, this would be the other way around.

nameshiv.bsky.social•35 days ago

watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6AI_FJWZPY&ab_channel=SecretBase

gymclasshero.bsky.social•36 days ago

A lot of WAR is based on weighted OBA, where singles don’t have the same value as XBH. Ichiro was a break the mold player and the eye test proved that.

WAR is great if you want to compare Rob Deer and Joey Gallo.

michaelsalfino.bsky.social•36 days ago

How did he change the way baseball is played?

sewoe.bsky.social•35 days ago

you know what Baseball isn’t just stats; it’s the stories, the moments, and the players like Ichiro who inspire generations

tasintsunami.bsky.social•36 days ago

Ichiro deserved to be 100%, but just a reminder that Bobby Abreu reached base more often, in fewer plate appearances, while both scoring and driving in more runs. He should've gone in too.

itsmatt.bsky.social•36 days ago

People will just post anything on here huh

rincewind.run•36 days ago

he was still a Hall guy by WAR, even if he wasn’t inner circle, but yeah

I love WAR and I think it’s helped us appreciate a lot of guys whose value was less flashy, but Ichiro is an icon in a way that transcended numbers

kygosi.bsky.social•36 days ago

And does that calculation include his Japanese years

soundanderinys.bsky.social•36 days ago

yes, this! it's the hall of fame, and there are many avenues to fame. having guys in there whom advanced stats love, next to guys who you can't tell the story of the game without, doesn't devalue either set

soundanderinys.bsky.social•36 days ago

i think i fucked up my who/whom. whatever, i think we all deserve a pass this week.

bobdavisnpf.bsky.social•35 days ago

if Ichiro is overrated, count me among the many who felt honored to overrate him for 14 wonderful years in Seattle.

blackmetronome.bsky.social•36 days ago

Rickey was my childhood hero when he played briefly for the Yanks so to see him mentioned with a GOAT like Ichiro warms my soul.

aarenp.bsky.social•36 days ago

He certainly changed where I sat to watch baseball and I’ve never changed since

nameshiv.bsky.social•36 days ago

There's a really good secret base video that talks about the 4 players who changed how baseball is played- Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson- and ichiro Suzuki. Could probably add Ohtani to that list today. But that's the list

geek19.bsky.social•36 days ago

Ooh, gonna check that out

oniinutade.bsky.social•36 days ago

Do you have a link?

walkabalkaframe.bsky.social•36 days ago

God, that whole episode is great. Especially the part about not having his dog's permission to disclose his name.

violanorth.bsky.social•36 days ago

I feel like Bob Gibson belongs on this list, too. Didn't they lower the mound because of his dominance?

charliekauffman.bsky.social•36 days ago

I thought the same.

toobigtofail.bsky.social•36 days ago

Wasn't just Gibson; Denny McLane won 30 games that season, pitching was dominant everywhere.

violanorth.bsky.social•36 days ago

Yes, for sure, but Gibson was otherworldly, from everything I've read. Terrifying to bat against.

connecticut-yankee.bsky.social•36 days ago

This -- I'm not old enough to personally remember him, but reading the guys that went up against him, they were actually *afraid*, which was a different thing

violanorth.bsky.social•36 days ago

He did have a tendency to throw directly at their heads if they broke any of his 74 unwritten rules.

oaklandishdude.bsky.social•36 days ago

A greed good list

michaelvitamin.bsky.social•36 days ago

Where is this video

nameshiv.bsky.social•35 days ago

youtube

tomscud.bsky.social•36 days ago

hmpf harry wright erasure

tomscud.bsky.social•36 days ago

to be fair not much video of harry wright

chrisquixote.bsky.social•36 days ago

Given the problems hitting homers in the M’s ballpark, they ought to be filling their lineup with Ichiro types.

(There’s only one Ichiro of course. But getting on base, running, and playing fabulous defense.)

nameshiv.bsky.social•36 days ago

That requires knowing what the fuck you're doing

outseide.bsky.social•36 days ago

I loved to watch Ichiro play!! He was so graceful and focused.

shahofblah.bsky.social•36 days ago

Baseball => Cricket
Ruth => Bradman
Ohtani => Sobers
Bonds => Tendulkar ??

nameshiv.bsky.social•36 days ago

Bonds is Viv Richards

shahofblah.bsky.social•36 days ago

Ok. And the other 2? Are there similiar equivalents?

nameshiv.bsky.social•36 days ago

henderson probably doesnt have an equiv because of how running between the wickets is way less valuable than stealing bases but if we had to pick a guy it's michael bevan. Ichiro is a hard one but I'd go Gavaskar probably

shahofblah.bsky.social•36 days ago

Thanks.

jaybeans.bsky.social•36 days ago

I feel like Willie Mays should be in there too, but I'm a big Mays fan

devincow.bsky.social•36 days ago

💯

theskullpodcast.bsky.social•36 days ago

I would absolutely agree that that is probably the list

lars-ellingsen.dev•36 days ago

I'll have to look that up. I'm an Angels fan and went to a lot of games growing up... I absolutely loved watching Ichiro play all of those years. Class act, and so unique

hopeymchope.bsky.social•35 days ago

Googled for this in multiple different ways and getting zero results. Any guidance on where to find this video and/or what it’s titled would be greatly appreciated

lantabraves.bsky.social•36 days ago

it’s dumb to even be having this discussion but he played a zillion seasons past his prime because he’s awesome, so citing career averages for him is a bit misleading.

bellmore.bsky.social•36 days ago

OVERRATED?! Damn, that's blasphemy. You are 💯Shiv - he changed the game and the lone vote he didn't get is obscene. He should have been unanimous.

berzerkyzman.bsky.social•35 days ago

WAR this.

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