I think people who are drawn to the liberal talking point that patriarchy harms (cishet) men too don't really understand that misogynistic men already believe themselves to be the true victims of patriarchal society. It's part of why they insist that women owe them sex and deference. - ThreadSky

aletheia327.bsky.social • 25 days ago

I think people who are drawn to the liberal talking point that patriarchy harms (cishet) men too don't really understand that misogynistic men already believe themselves to be the true victims of patriarchal society. It's part of why they insist that women owe them sex and deference.

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transvestight.bsky.social•25 days ago

i mean, the guys who popularized that line of thinking in the 70s (men's liberation) went on to start the men's rights movement lol

transvestight.bsky.social•25 days ago

somehow it just keeps happening that guys who have Reasonable Concerns about men not being considered victims of patriarchy keep becoming misogynist activists. who can say why this totally unforeseeable series of events is happening.

edrobot.bsky.social•25 days ago

I’d say patriarchy hurts men by training them to be miserable assholes.

jeenyusb.bsky.social•25 days ago

I think that without sex men would have never agreed to go to work

you take sex away from a man, he will do anything you tell him to period.

food works this way also. 🤠

someblueskyacct.bsky.social•25 days ago

The idea that patriarchy harms men was incredibly intuitive to me because I was bullied mercifully by men growing up. I'm usually skeptical of dominant groups using terminology like "true victims", especially as a way to diminish the traumatic experiences of others.

someblueskyacct.bsky.social•25 days ago

Men acknowledging that the patriarchy also harms men while using that to justify misogyny is wild though.

erichluepke.bsky.social•25 days ago

I'm fully aware of that. I've tried to get rid of my personal victim complex as I've grown older.

I think it's worth considering how some men benefit a lot more from patriarchy than others, that's the way I'd prefer to phrase it.

lgbtally.bsky.social•24 days ago

How can you have this discussion and not talk about class? Poor men are victims of the patriarchal oligarchy society just like all other poor people. A lot of these men become misogynists as a pathetic cope. But it’s an economic problem.

volition-newlove.itch.io•25 days ago

like nobody making this argument actually thinks they can go up to andrew tate fans and convince them that masculinity is a prison, either, so it doesn't really feel like proponents of this "big tent" approach are actually all that concerned with its efficacy

kobolddeontology.bsky.social•24 days ago

As a weird little white guy, I agree. Like, "patriarchy hurts men too" is technically true, in that because I'm "weird and little", a few doors were never open to me. But "white guy" is free access to most of the doors, so it'd be amazingly petty to focus on patriarchy's harm to me.

kobolddeontology.bsky.social•24 days ago

Basically, I think "bad for men too" is not a good place to approach learning about the patriarchy for many men, especially men who are unwilling to grapple with how sexism benefits them, but please allow me the pleasurable anticipation of the fringe benefits of patriarchy's death.

ohcrapnowwhat.bsky.social•25 days ago

you dont know that

natusm.bsky.social•25 days ago

^follows Jesse Singal. JFC

cmblack.bsky.social•25 days ago

What about philogynist men? Do you not think they also suffer, tho obviously not to the extent of women.?

aletheia327.bsky.social•25 days ago

You can talk about how men suffer because of masculinity until the end of time, and it's not even completely false, but the catch is that gender is still hierarchical. They're still empowered to see any drawbacks as an affront to the privileges they feel entitled to by virtue of being men.

shituationist.bsky.social•25 days ago

People in the middle of patriarchal hierarchies (sons, young men in, say, polygamous societies) are in many ways victims and have historically found allies in feminist causes, thereby contributing to women's lib. Don't really see the problem here.

shituationist.bsky.social•25 days ago

Like are they "empowered" by a false consciousness that keeps them subordinate to the actual patriarchs? Don't think so personally.

cherylkohs.bsky.social•25 days ago

Are you kidding?

shituationist.bsky.social•25 days ago

Almost never.

shituationist.bsky.social•25 days ago

No son who hasn't been beaten into submission (one of the mechanisms of patriarchal repression is the violent abuse of sons for stepping out of patriarchal social mores) wants to be under their dad's thumb. The vast majority of men would be happier under some kind of Reichian matriarchy.

shituationist.bsky.social•25 days ago

Unless the OP is just trying to channel feminists into lesbian separatist communes (I'm not hating on that either) I don't see the point in discouraging people from talking about the way patriarchy anchors itself through violence netted out against both young women and men.

mdaigual.bsky.social•25 days ago

Hierarchies put us in boxes, that takes away freedom from the whole society, but that doesn't change the fact that those at the top usually prefer to be at the top than to be free.

lgbtally.bsky.social•24 days ago

Most misogynists problems are really caused by being poor, but they blame it on women.

justpassingthru2.bsky.social•25 days ago

In making that mistake, they fundamentally misunderstand, possibly deliberately, the point we are making when we say patriarchy harms everyone.

aletheia327.bsky.social•25 days ago

There's no reason to be going around saying systems of exploitation harm everyone.

justpassingthru2.bsky.social•25 days ago

That is fundamentally untrue, and disallows, by premise, possibility for consensus.

forrestroche.bsky.social•25 days ago

"disallows, by premise, possibility for consensus"

How so?

justpassingthru2.bsky.social•25 days ago

By starting categorically from an initial premise disallows, from the outset, any potential reasons for noting that a system which, while exploitative, harms all, excludes, absolutely.

A more defensible starting premise is that there is an order condescendi in play.

justpassingthru2.bsky.social•25 days ago

Stated differently: It's one thing to say patriarchy harms women more, so we need more focus here. It is entirely another to say patriarchy only harms women, and still another to say there is no reason to care that it harms men too. The last position is the same epistemic violence, full circle.

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