Palestinian resistance is never “unprovoked” and to frame it as such is disingenuous propaganda of the highest order. Occupation is a constant provocation.
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Israel hasn’t occupied Gaza since 2005. And let’s not pretend it’s ordinary Palestinians rising up, it’s a terrorist organization that oppresses its own people and just murdered and kidnapped tons of Israeli citizens. But go off.
While I agree, Hamas' response just put more Palestinian lives at risk both in Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas gave the Likudniks everything they needed.
Probably. Hamas knows that Netanyahu and most Likudniks are easily prodded into getting psycho stupid and doing shit. So another prod is Hamas knowing that Palestinians will pay in lives for their actions.
That's not a mystery. But if Hamas wants to see their cause as just they should stick to military targets. Might even help them in the international PR against the Likudniks.
or...
They could try peace talks for once.
Hamas is in power because every more chill authority in Gaza has been arrested or assassinated, and every promise made to more diplomatic governments has been broken. Being chill didn't work, so they're giving violence a chance.
And now Hamas added more reasons. Things were at a lull, with open access to the al-Aqsa Mosque for all worshipers. Work permits from Gaza being expanded. More supplies moved in. Now all of that will vaporize.
It. Is. An. Occupation. There is no lull in being occupied. The settlements are still being built. The blockade still exists. What are you talking about. Mentioning the IDF and mass murder terror gang in the same post and not acknowledging any irony is hilarious. Be serious. Please.
Yeah you can go fuck yourself. I have no mercy for colonizers. If it was for people like you my people would still be colonized because my people had to take in account the most privileged class in the apartheid system that was forced onto my people
I personally think this is the wrong rhetoric. it's not that "Palestinian resistance is never unprovoked" it's about the fact that Hamas doesn't represent the will of the Palestinian people. framing rogue Hamas actions as "Palestinian resistance" is unironically hurting their cause.
if we play into the idea that Hamas is just the entire Palestinian military like conservatives like to argue, it's easy to paint Palestine and Israel as equivocal powers in a war, which is NOT the case. Palestine is the victim of one-sided genocide and-
even answering the question of "is the violence of Hamas justified" at all is playing right into their hands. just refuse the question entirely, it's an invalid question. going so far as to say Hamas is justified here is overreaching, imo.
It's an immense disappointment in humanity that a country that counts itself as being a refuge for a people that suffered a genocide are slowly perpetrating one.
I dare those who expect Palestinians to behave like ever peaceful saints to live just one day in a place where an extremely powerful army is restricting their freedom of movement while protecting colonial settlers who can attack their family and home at any time, sometimes even killing their people.
Part of me never believed he would pull off the ubi. I feel like he was young enough that he wasn't completely disconnected from reality like most politicians so he knew what to say to get a lot of leftists on his side.
Just so you know, even Sawant “both sides”ed Israel and Palestinian in a radio interview during her first term, and it only got worse from there. Her org still “condemns the violence on both sides” as if the violence of the oppressed equals the violence of the oppressor.
Hamas isn't Palestinian resistance. In fact, they're the main enemy of Palestinians, and they always were that. And the other killer, Netanyahu, will oblige and make a bloodbath of Palestinians out of this.
It is very strange to me that there are grown adults out here not understanding that armed resistance and terrorism are not incompatible things. Trying to narrowly define resistance to only be what makes you feel comfortable is not a serious exercise.
Direct, face-to-face murder is always more shocking to people, and states rely on that to keep the balance of public opinion shifted in their favor. Create the conditions for violent response and the script just writes itself.
Yes, so they're helping Netanyahu kill even more Palestinians. A thousand Palestinian death is probably the best scenario right now. They're not scaring the ones with power in Israel, because that's not their intent.
Hamas only exists because of the colonization of Palestine, the way that the Viet Minh only existed due to the colonization of Indochina. It's just a statement of fact. And once there is resistance the occupying powers use it to effect greater control. Doesn't always work out for them of course.
This isn't terrorism the same way provisional IRA was doing terrorism, for ex. This is much worse. Hamas are a bunch of crooks, a quality they share with Netanyahu, and violent fanatics. For them Palestinians are just props to give them power, and they're using them as such.
Again, is your ignorant ass supporting the killing and the defiling of the bodies of concert-goers and other civilians by Hamas, "Hoss"? And if so, how is this helping the Palestinians, and not Netanyahu's far right government who's set to revenge the killings?
Asking if I’m cool with civilian deaths is a truly wild leap of logic when all I said was that you cant draw a clean distinction between “good” IRA and “bad” Hamas.
They also trained in Palestine. So? Provos terrorized English officials not civilians, and that brought them to the negotiation table. And they gave up all their political aspiration, which was an united Ireland, for peace and rights for the Irish in NI.
All incorrect. pIRA acted very differently depending on region and time period. Multiple negotiations happened, the final (successful) one when they lost their mandate following the Remembrance Day bombing. And a (peacefully) United Ireland is still very much at the forefront of Sinn Féin policy
I mean, this is not my lane? But I'll also say - The IRA got the job done, and also there was a lot of harm in their community and plenty of folks on the ground both... supported the IRA but also were screwed over by them? Like, it is a full mess. It is always a mess.
Of course. They were far from being angels. But they had a vision, and in the end, they gave up their main political aspiration for peace and rights for their people.
My family was forced out of their homes to cross the river into Jordan for 5 days: the 1948 Palestinian exodus. Israel has come under numerous war crimes by the UN, but because the US supports them militarily, the problem continues. They regularly attack children. Our media doesn't cover that.
Palestine has no formal military. Hamas was formed to resist Israeli occupation, it's Palestine's only defense.
We awkwardly provide paltry food and supplies to Palestine and weapons/military intelligence to Israel. But our media is clearly one-sided. In the UN, we were the sole vote in favor.
The skirmish in 2010s was 1:8 death toll around 8,000 on the Palestinian side. And due to the occupation, mortality is around 40 years, and schools get targeted. Attacks killed more children than adults. We were the sole vote opposing sanctions.
Extremists want war. People on both sides want peace.
The both sides people are the same ones that go "Palestine should try nonviolence" while IDF mows down peaceful protest after peaceful protest and bombs refugees.
I am 100% actively avoiding this discourse because of its utterly binary divide on this platform. But as usual, you have solid takes that show some real thoughtfulness across the spectrum of thought, and I appreciate you for it.
You don't even have to look that far, there are people on here, today, while the attack's still going on, insisting that Israel should not exist. Among certain circles that's taken as a given, that of course Israel must be erased from the map, only that would be fair.
I know. Spent a part of yesterday evening to get news from the family in their shelters. Most men have been called to serve. A young cousin in the Golani sent southwards.
Palestine has wanted the annihilation of Israel since it was founded in 1948. Given that the very existence of Israel is offensive to Palestine, your argument is nonsensical.
Moreover, an occupation is, among other things, a geopolitical region subservient to a sovereign power.
To what sovereign power is Israel subservient? None. It is itself sovereign. Now, Palestine has a right to exist as much as any state, but it does not have a right to see Israel destroyed. And the fall of Israel would be the fall of Palestine.
heres where i assume we SHOULD agree. ALL war crimes should be dealt with as war crimes.
In the context of the larger conflict
That means the crimes committed by Israelis need to be viewed in the same light as crimes committed as part of maintaining illegal occupation.
calling an attack expressly rationalized as "defense of al Aqsa from Jewish prayer" resistance and claiming that it's justified *in advance* irrespective of the form it takes is no different from declaring "radical Islam" a mortal enemy and launching wars in Muslim countries on that pretext.
occupation is not settler colonialism, but it is still occupation. Gaza is blockaded. Hamas is a big reason for this, but the blockade makes life there miserable. and of course there *are* settlers in the West Bank, in violation of international law. none of this is in dispute.
What everyone seems to be forgetting is that however we assign responsibility or judge the legitimacy of the Hamas attack, it serves only to consolidate Bibi’s power and make everything inside and outside Israel worse for everybody. Which is exactly what is happening.
Get fucked, pal. Let me drive a tank into your village, beat the crap out of everyone, smash everything up, bulldoze homes, tear up your crops and you just sit back and behave yourself or else…stop pretending this is unprovoked.
Every Israeli does military service so they can take up arms to maintain the occupation of Palestine but out of uniform they're always defined as civilians.
Every Palestinian male between 14 and 70 killed by Israel is always labelled a militant.
HAHAHAHAHA you’re a teacher. Ain’t no fucking way! Also no one is falling for the antisemitism angle anymore. This isn’t the 90s. The world is seeing exactly the bullshit that Israel is putting the Palestinians through
Wanna cite your source there about who said that where? Or are you just going to bloviate in support of settler colonization? Crying “antisemitism” is the Israeli “ignore our crimes” special. You can love the Jewish community and still be anti-Israel. In fact, it’s the ethical take!!
I think we would all like there to be no violence. What is that you think prompted the violence? And what approach should Palestinians take to ending the occupation of Gaza instead?
Gaza isn’t occupied. That ended years ago. It is blockaded. Including by Egypt that shares a land border. Maybe ask why that is? Many countries/leaders together made this mess.
“Criticism of apartheid is antisemitic” is not a tactic that will work on anyone any more. Most Jews under the age of 40 now fully realize that’s bullshit and don’t fall for it the way our parents did
Many Jews over the age of 40 have also stopped buying that bullshit. My 71 year old father and I (41) were just discussing the attacks and both of us questioned how anyone, Israel in particular, could be surprised about this. What did they expect Palestine would do after decades of being oppressed?
except the OP is not criticism of apartheid; it's a wholesale endorsement of any and all types of violence against Jewish civilians as automatically justified in each and every case.
That is 100% inaccurate in every possible way, and you can only come to that conclusion if you have no reading comprehension whatsoever. “Provoked” does not mean “totally justified in every way regardless of who gets hurt.” It means there’s a reason it happened and that Israel isn’t blameless
All my Jewish comrades share same opinion and to their credit leading criticism of apartheid, nobody is okay with civilian casualties but if some improvised weapons burned some grass response is always far more horrible, time after time unprovoked too
idk where to start with this. let's stipulate arugendo that Israel is only as old as the partition and is thus a settler colonial state. set aside UN recognition, which evidently can't legitimize its existence. is Israel the lone such state? are we prepared to treat all the others similarly?
shut the fuck up you ignorant goyim. Don't equivocate retaliation against Israel as some antisemitic BS. That just helps fuel the narrative that Israel = Jews which is absolutely untrue
there is constant provocation and others constantly calculating [but not the entire occupied population who would just like to have less boot-on-neck action]
This seems ridiculously oversimplified though. Has Ukraine been intentionally targeting and killing civilians? Like if Hamas were targeting the IDF specifically and leaving civilians alone I'd agree with you, but there seems to be a lot of Israeli civilians targeted and killed intentionally here.
Any time a country shoves a bunch of people inside a tiny space and build a bunch of #safetywalls around them for their “safety” and slowly turn the screws on said “safety” space while occasionally shooting a few here and there for “safety”; eventually shit hits the fucking fan ‘cause fuck “safety”
All of the peaceful resistors in Palestine were long ago killed by Israeli occupiers. Violence is the only language the zionist speaks, and so violence will be the reply he gets.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. And then you have to come to an agreement over your hangovers. Look, I don't know the answer better than anyone else. All I know is children are going to die because idiots are fighting over dirt.
Peaceful resistance creates easy targets when both the State and the populace want to grind your culture, blood, and bones to ash. It requires a sense of compromise among yourselves; a willingness from others to observe and listen to grievances. Alliances amongst locals, tightly knit communities.
Exactly; anyone who sees events here and in Israel and still thinks peaceful resistance is possible, let alone the only option, is just......not worth including in the discussion. At all. It takes a special brand of ignorance to assume one form of resistance is equally viable everywhere, every time.
Even if people take the peaceful option, and change is therefore promised, what's the record for the Powers That Be actually listening and following through? It has to hurt somehow; even if it's something relatively minor like productivity (see the strikes here). In that case, economic productivity.
And the only time in American history that “peaceful” resistance actually accomplished its goals
Was the time when white folks holding power considered THE PEACEFUL PRESENCE OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THEIR SPACE to be, in and of itself, an act of violence against whiteness
british colonialism in india was focused on exploiting indian people for britain's economic gain; the anticolonial movement was able to deny them profit & labor
israeli colonialism in occupied palestine is focused on *removing* palestinians
Because famously there were no Indians violently resisting the British, Ghandi just asked nicely and they said "Sorry for the bother old chap, we didn't realise there was a problem! We'll be off."
Ghandi rode a wave of armed resistance to negotiate peace and some concessions but it took more armed resistance to finish the job. No oppressed group has achieved their freedom from oppressors by asking nicely.
"If recognized leaders of mankind who have control over engines of destruction were wholly to renounce their use with full knowledge of implications, permanent peace can be obtained. This is clearly impossible without the great powers of the earth renouncing their imperialistic designs."
in fact i’d put most ahead of Gandhi if he weren’t bandied about in American English as some sort of Eastern Washington - which would be way worse, but then that’s a whole conversation too
Peaceful resistance is only possible and meaningful if you have the capacity to resort to violence. Peace by choice is powerful, if you have to adopt nonviolence because you can't respond with violence then the state has no issue swatting you away.
There's been decades of trying to resolve this peacefully. Israel has been handed opportunity after opportunity on a golden platter that would be so ridiculously unfair to Palestine yet beneficial to Israel yet STILL they refused to come to an agreement.
And that in no way means violence is an answer it never will be. Especially with lunatics praising an imaginary God while they're killing people he comes down to religious fanatics on both sides, causing the death of innocent people on both sides.
Trying to reduce a genocide, apartheid, and extermination as a, both sides issue when it comes to a population trying to resist their own destruction from an illegal occupying force
HOW ARE THE PALESTINIANS SUPPOSED TO RESIST THEIR EXTERMINATION IF NOBODY ELSE IS STOPPING ISRAEL!?
and the actual reason britain gave up india was the violent freedom fighters in the kashmir region. they pointed to gandhi to make people think that non-violent reistence can work so they could get more non-violent resistence cus violent resistence works
He said violence is better than pacifism and that civil disobedience required disobedience, which he said is supposed to shame the oppressors. But y'all have no shame so
You don't know your history. Violent resistance and the promise of more was already making British rule untenable, and only against that backdrop was ghandi seen as the better option. "One dude preached Peace and the colonizers saw the error of their ways" *is the colonizers version of history*.
The Palestinians are wrong too for harboring terrorism. Both sides are wrong. Maybe you should try living in the real world? The problem here is religion. People living their lives, according to an imaginary friend and thinking that friend gave them land... it's pathetic.
Peacefully resisting the bombs dropped on my head, sniper bullets from sharpshooters, and the bulldozers driven by settlers from Brooklyn dozing my ancestral home
Peaceful resistance is an option when the stakes are lower but achieves nothing against violent occupation. It serves only to smooth the path for further occupation.
How do you peacefully resist a fucking boot on your neck. Fuck that. You would prefer people quietly die to maintain a veneer of civility. Fuck this opinion.
By not trying to imitate the people you're fighting against. It's cliché but two wrongs do not make a right and using terrorism is always wrong. Fuck your opinion if you enjoy watching children die. Children on both sides count whether you think so or not.
I think we are all asking you to put yourself in the shoes of people kept in an open air prison unable to move freely and when they protested they were beaten, shot, and ignored. How long would you put up with treatment like that before you became desperate?? Just please consider this.
You’re right, we should let them passively resist their entire lives in an open air prison instead. What does peaceful resistance constitute here? Is it saying ‘I’m peacefully resisting?’ Fuck you.
If the Ukrainian military was launching border raids to massacre random Russian civilians and take hostages to be tortured, we'd call them terrorists too. (Instead it's Russian forces that have committed mass murder in towns they've captured.)
A just grievance does not justify genocidal war crimes.
Poles in WWII fought with the Allies and even after the war continued to resist until the late 50s. Mao robbed his own people blind, avoided fighting the Japanese and needed Stalin to get into power. Hamas terrorizes her own people and denounces self governance. That is why they're not the same.
Sooo… Israel doesn’t terrorize a populace or attack democracy? Dude. Israelis have been protesting against undemocratic changes to the judiciary for months. Have you been napping since WWII?
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or...
They could try peace talks for once.
Kshama Sawant.
But she isn't federal.
Hamas isn't Palestinian resistance. In fact, they're the main enemy of Palestinians, and they always were that. And the other killer, Netanyahu, will oblige and make a bloodbath of Palestinians out of this.
We awkwardly provide paltry food and supplies to Palestine and weapons/military intelligence to Israel. But our media is clearly one-sided. In the UN, we were the sole vote in favor.
Extremists want war. People on both sides want peace.
The charter of Hamas is very clear.
Moreover, an occupation is, among other things, a geopolitical region subservient to a sovereign power.
https://www.972mag.com/gaza-attack-context-israelis/
"that's a correct take"
heres where i assume we SHOULD agree. ALL war crimes should be dealt with as war crimes.
In the context of the larger conflict
That means the crimes committed by Israelis need to be viewed in the same light as crimes committed as part of maintaining illegal occupation.
See how it works when I just change most of your sentence, Michael? Kind of makes it look like I made shit up!
Acknowledging provocation does not equal endorsing the response or the counterresponse.
Every Palestinian male between 14 and 70 killed by Israel is always labelled a militant.
there is constant provocation and others constantly calculating [but not the entire occupied population who would just like to have less boot-on-neck action]
but really maybe the world is complicated?
It has been self ruling since 2005
As far as Gaza, it is still under occupation according to the U.N. and other international NGO's.
https://press.un.org/en/2023/gashc4390.doc.htm
Oh the irony...
What’s that called?
Oh yeah.
Racism.
You fucking mistake.
Please provide the address of the power plant in Gaza. Or the water treatment facility.
Palestinian resistance: terrorism
Was the time when white folks holding power considered THE PEACEFUL PRESENCE OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THEIR SPACE to be, in and of itself, an act of violence against whiteness
Gandhi’s march to the sea was similarly itself considered an act of violence by the Brits because it meant they wanted to refuse to pay for salt.
british colonialism in india was focused on exploiting indian people for britain's economic gain; the anticolonial movement was able to deny them profit & labor
israeli colonialism in occupied palestine is focused on *removing* palestinians
you can't just pile it all together and say "maybe the teenage partisans in the vilna ghetto should have tried boycotts" or whatever
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/766083651/gandhi-is-deeply-revered-but-his-attitudes-on-race-and-sex-are-under-scrutiny
- Mahatma Gandhi
American Liberal’s Gandhi: held Nelson Mandela’s hand as they peacefully sang “Imagine a world with no anger”
https://youtu.be/CSo1PGWojxE?si=L2lJ_zcfpIEV9SBD
HOW ARE THE PALESTINIANS SUPPOSED TO RESIST THEIR EXTERMINATION IF NOBODY ELSE IS STOPPING ISRAEL!?
Violence is a correct answer to an existential threat.
https://youtu.be/n1UDtR0Gab4?si=BoiKKMFVjZ7Ss5nV
"Good."
https://themuslimvibe.com/muslim-current-affairs-news/africa/15-quotes-from-nelson-mandela-on-the-freedom-of-palestine
A just grievance does not justify genocidal war crimes.