I'm pleased Beavers are breeding in the wild, official path seems perminantly closed, thinking about it I can both be pleased some people broke the rules and we got Beavers, while doubting that people should break rules and not trusting the people who do. - ThreadSky

amiesphilip.bsky.social • 12 hours ago

I'm pleased Beavers are breeding in the wild, official path seems perminantly closed, thinking about it I can both be pleased some people broke the rules and we got Beavers, while doubting that people should break rules and not trusting the people who do.

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stevejwildwriter.bsky.social•11 hours ago

Civil disobedience changes laws: without it, self-evidently beavers would not be classified as a protected native species in England. Net-positive as far as I can see

peter-purbeck.bsky.social•10 hours ago

Civil disobedience by openly breaking a law you believe to be unjust can change the law. Breaking the law "under cover of darkness" is not civil disobedience, it's straight criminality.

stevejwildwriter.bsky.social•10 hours ago

Interesting point. I'll rephrase: covert law-breaking in the case of Beavers in Devon has proven net-beneficial. It's a provocative claim

amiesphilip.bsky.social•10 hours ago

I think that is exactly the issue, you often pay a price for an act of civil disobedience because you act openly your identity known.

stevejwildwriter.bsky.social•10 hours ago

You've been comparing it to game keepers killing Hen Harriers, also largely undetectable

amiesphilip.bsky.social•9 hours ago

Which I said, you want to deny the obvious equivalence because you think Beaver is good, killing raptors is bad, but some keepers and landowners hold the opposite view. While financial incentive more obvious for shooting industry, some individual rewilders make money, but I think more motivated by

stevejwildwriter.bsky.social•8 hours ago

I'm not 'wanting to deny' anything. Just having a discussion to see if I can be persuaded. I'm rarely closed-minded on anything to be honest! Apart from that evolution is a clearly a fact

amiesphilip.bsky.social•9 hours ago

conviction, still some shooting people are, they believe that wildlife declines are the fault of conservationists protecting predators, nonsense giving scale of intensive land use, but it is an argument which gains support in some communities beyond the directly employed in shooting.

amiesphilip.bsky.social•12 hours ago

I feel zero need to turn rule breakers into heroes, then again, I have zero interest in that concept. If one were prosecuted, I would not care, they made their choices as people have done on other issues, and paid the price for doing so.

stevejwildwriter.bsky.social•11 hours ago

I'm not trying to suggest they're heroes. Just pointing out that we'd not have legally-protected wild beavers in England now or soon probably without their civil disobedience

amiesphilip.bsky.social•10 hours ago

Which we agree upon, I suppose I'm mainly concerned about people making their own choices, process should expose lack of evidence (which failed with White Stork) which hopefully should result in something better than people releasing whatever they think is cool despite lack of evidence of native

amiesphilip.bsky.social•10 hours ago

status, or cause of decline if native, or impacts on other people and their businesses, and how conflict can be resolved.

stevejwildwriter.bsky.social•10 hours ago

I don't think White Stork is that helpful for comparison. Beavers are very obviously a legitimate native species reintroduction.

amiesphilip.bsky.social•9 hours ago

It is completely apposite, in that case an introduction of a non-native (with a breeding record, of annual occurrence and could naturally colonise) was introduced legally by following procedure, a gross abuse of policy objected to internally by appropriate state advisors. While Beaver is native, all

amiesphilip.bsky.social•12 hours ago

Basically what people want because the outcome was good is an endorsement of illegal behaviour, I'm not in favour of rule breaking, which is funny as I don't much like rules, a quirk of personality I suppose, @iancarter67.bsky.social has a coherent position, no faulting that. The rest of us perhaps

amiesphilip.bsky.social•12 hours ago

less so because we like the outcome, and suspect the establishment was always going to find reasons for delay and the day would never come for legal release. As Beavers are super cool the end result of crime kind of paid in this instance (for some of us) but as Ian has said might not in other

amiesphilip.bsky.social•12 hours ago

instances such as keepers illegally killing protected species such as Hen harriers, in an organised crime conspiracy involving rich and powerful members of the establishment including the monarchy, politicians, property owners and maybe a few vicars? Certainly some military, police, judiciary, and

amiesphilip.bsky.social•12 hours ago

civil servants. This long running exercise of establishment tacit complicity with organised crime which has significant financial gain, and enshrines rural power structures is a massive issue. I don't suppose the Beaver issue is an equivalency but it does flout rule of law, and rich politically

amiesphilip.bsky.social•12 hours ago

influential people appear to be involved. Maybe they all just are entitled and feel above the laws which are only for plebs?

amiesphilip.bsky.social•12 hours ago

I do see some of those who in the past paid the price as part of struggle which resulted in the law changing as right, because I have the same views as them, others I don't because I disagree with them. Ultimately the law needs to be enforced evenly, has it been? I don't know, it seems the law does

amiesphilip.bsky.social•12 hours ago

little about wildlife crime, and is more likely to act when repeat offences suggest contempt of the court. I'm sure 'guardians of the countryside' would claim the law persecutes keepers and ignore rewilders, but they would. Certainly, the authorities acted rapidly with released Lynx.

stevejwildwriter.bsky.social•11 hours ago

The police send up drones in Norfolk to catch towny hair courses but refuse to do the same to catch law-breaking fox hunters!

stevejwildwriter.bsky.social•11 hours ago

Hare.....

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