1. I’m thinking aloud here, as I really don’t have the answers. This is a thread about the political challenge of the very large numbers of young men now supporting the far right. I’m writing it without blame or derision. I’m just trying to find a way through. 🧵
Comments
The use of pure percentage head to head figures is often deeply misleading. The turnout and the support for trump was much higher in older people overall.
See comparison being made between Trump and Mao. https://johnmenadue.com/the-american-style-cultural-revolution-is-taking-root-in-the-us/
Young men (18-29)voted more Harris than any other male age group - 47%
Millennials (45- 64)voted least -38%
If the exit poll from npr is accurate
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/exit-polls
There are people who have suffered actual oppression for hundreds to thousands of years, why do they not matter??
"Hey this guy just said he hates dogs!"
"I find the exclusion of horses from this conversation highly problematic."
etc.
Social problems won't be solved if people can't discuss all parts of the puzzle.
The only real threat to governments are unions, which is why Govs try to crush them. They had given ordinary people increasing standard of living year on year until Thatcher crushed them
Green economy could provide good opportunities with apprenticeships & valued status.
Government & policy makers to get on the case with it!
I think we have inbuilt adaptability. But I could just be boasting. 😀
The felt impact of (perceived) losses have been found to be experienced disproportionately to the actual change. IMO men are fighting back hard due to this.
And I do believe that porn makes it worse.
More attention was/is needed (dare I say it) on change mgt. Esp. men's identity challenges and real losses and vulnerabilities felt.
Appealing versions of masculinity compatible with equality are needed.
A good steady job, with prospects, or a chance to own a house, now seem unrealistic.
It needs to be combined with feeling disrespected and a sense of entitlement (justified or not) AND an ability/willingness to act antisocially.
I know AOC asked people who voted for her and Trump to share their reasons, and that definitely came up. Similarly a Dem representative elected in 2016 in an area which voted for Trump.
I'll link to it
But I also think this is as much about status, financial security relative to women, not just generationally. I think many men suffer a 'loss aversion' that women don't because they are gaining new pathways to status that were previously closed.
Who is Elon Musk
Who is Jordan B. Peterson
Who is Andrew Tate
🤔🌱🕊
Is it because the real intellectuals don't provide any easy answers?
That brought an edge to his comedy that made him famous, but he was never going promote public good over private greed, was he?
How to get the educational attainment of young men up? They are outperformed by girls in every area.
Hitler, Mussolini, Kitchener, Churchill were all able to mobilise young men.
Trump provides them permission to march as a group and live out their fantasies.
See B.F. Skinner, Operant conditioning, especially variable-ratio reward.
I once lived in Tamworth, where asylum hotel was attacked. Poor school support for those who learn differently. Few employment opportunities. Under investment & very insulated ‘white’ population.
Has been prime target of right wing parties for years.
Labour have not cleared the far-right propagandists out of the BBC and are ignoring reform. Unless they tackle that they ARE part of the problem.
If the media is not fair then need grassroots built up old style.
Tactical voting doesnt work. Labour are compromised.
If anyone doubts that: expanding SEZs and PFI should be evidence enough unless their denial is very strong.
Interested parties should be planning NOW.
More than most realize. All because they don't want to pay their taxes.
How to get through in the rabbit holes that so many are already so far down, and the motives of those that they are following there is a problem it is hard to see a way through.
Without them, we are goldfish and may tragically need to relearn those lessons.
The younger generations currently face wealth disparity, economic depression, but also unionising. The same conditions made the men (& women) who fought in WW2.
Of course they will never engage in any form of introspection, or countenance the notion that they could be wrong about anything, so I fully expect this trend to continue
Our volunteer sector plays a massive role in helping young adults mature.
"Why people vote for politicians they know are liars"
https://theconversation.com/why-people-vote-for-politicians-they-know-are-liars-128953
I don’t think it’s 1 particular reason but many
reason for this because those in charge of selection don’t want labeled.
Our voices & opinions are ignored and this manifests into dangerous outlets.
It's the fragmentation of the left.
I'm from a working class background and women were the bosses at home so toxic masculinity didn't come from us!
Mobile phones are ruining the younger generation.
Lack of empathy etc.
Again bit of a generalisation but it could explain wider social changes.
We become what we consume.
The gaming industry and internet are largely created by young men, for young men.
There's a ton of violence/misogyny in gaming/online.
Lots of young men have been consuming this garbage all their lives.
Sadly, many have become what they consumed.
Initially the far right didn't have a clue about the WWW or being online, the left naively considered it their domain.
I could see trouble coming and the left just ignored the progress the far right was making.
Unless we learn and adapt I fear we’ll lose to simple answers
50 UK families own the same wealth as 50% of the population
US wealthiest 1% own 32%
Globally 0.01% own the same as 75%
They’re the problem, and your solution to declining quality of life
It's not a handout. It's correcting a market fail.
Republicans have fought against these since fucking McKinley
A lot of the young men — same ones dismissed as Bernie Bros — got disillusioned with the Dems and I can't blame them.
https://youtu.be/kf5i2cc6-JY?si=kcWB2jAdJYPF3jjw
I also didn't like the descent into conspiracism and general obnoxiousness that Peterson et Al took.
Maybe I also just matured a bit.
Relevant post from a thread I did about the Star Wars show The Acolyte
https://bsky.app/profile/blkntvterraffvi.bsky.social/post/3lbn43dssks23
FEMINISM is good for Everyone.
The idea was that comfortable people would reject extremist politics (either Communism or Fascism).
@threadreader.bsky.social unroll
What both groups do is give these men routine, a sense of identity purpose and brotherhood. Both are equally pernicious.
This one example is just rhetoric: but their movement is not as small or fringe, and with government control, they would have impunity to act out this rhetoric.
And in every place, be it Afghanistan; the Congo; Palestine; America, it is women and girls who pay the price for the insane recklessness of men.
Anywhere to live.
Tinyhouse with a few meters of garden, whatever, anywhere they can make a basis for their best independent life.
I think.
https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-young-people-right-wing-voters-far-right-politics-eu-elections-parliament/
And definitely including us:
https://www.johnsmithcentre.com/research-blog/are-young-women-and-young-men-in-the-uk-heading-in-different-political-directions/
https://www.europinion.uk/post/the-kids-are-not-ok-the-rise-of-the-far-right-in-british-teenagers
Yeah; that's what we've expected from democrats since FDR. The nearest they got was the ACA. Minwage hasn't budged since 1972.
My broken heart screams that it will get much worse before it gets better.
Young men/boys have lots of energy. That needs to be channelled to a useful societal purpose. Or it won't. If you catch my drift.
Capitalism, plus our abysmal education system, plus social media. MESS!
Should we 'control' that influence?, insulate them from 'outside' influence?...
The reality is they will be influenced by the society they experience...
Social media content is overwhelmingly anti-progressive and we need to consider how we deal with this. But boys falling behind in education has been happening for 40 years now.
As you said though, this is rooted in societal deep issues and until we address those, talk will be just that.
None of the concerns of these young "men" will be addressed by RW populism.
It is all performance art by the Broligarchy.
We will lurch between extremes until we address the global wealth inequality and Climate Collapse.
The continual process
The Enlightenment & Common Sense Ideology attempt to ‘fix’ Meaning(s)-‘control the narrative’
Comm Tech, Time/Space compression, increased flotsam& jetsam
SS Toxic Masculinity is picking up flailing need for ‘fixed identity’
History Already Warns Us.
I don't have answers. ☹️
https://skywriter.blue/pages/georgemonbiot.bsky.social/post/3lbprriebck23
I’m an Xennial; my generation was mostly not raised. And then we didn’t raise our kids. But instead of MTV rotting their brains, they’ve had tailored programming pushing hard right.
I think there is a way to at least look for the warning signs of it getting worse if nothing else
There's a place in progressivism for going to the gym and liking combat sports.
These do not need to be polarising things.
The left is calling out shitty and violent behaviour. The fact that most of it is committed by men is a male problem that men aren't doing enough to address and instead are just blaming the people calling it out.
I'm sure you can find that kind of stuff if you go looking for it. I don't feel that's it's a major theme, generally.
My son and I both are gym regulars and enjoy shooting sports. Both team blue.
I know there are plenty like us.
https://bsky.app/profile/leahmcelrath.bsky.social/post/3lbpog27m6c26
This is a losing strategy with men and a losing strategy with moderates.
They will become as uncivilized as those before for most of human history. And thus a problem. It doesn't matter if they are more or less than half the population.
It's going to be hard for the left to let go of identity politics. The sooner we start the better.
If Trump's election has shown anything it's that simply campaigning to NOT be Trump will lose; people need hope.
I've spent a lot of time in the US and there is a difference in how males behave.
1. US men seem much more fragile, they cannot really take criticism and are thin skinned.
3. They are very concerned with status. This is displaced into discussions of the size of their barbecues 😉 and their skill at cooking meat.
5. Discussing Theatre, Art, Philosophy is shunned. Hence women who go on dates get bored.
6. Sport subsumes all thought.
7. Discussing Sport is the way they communicate.
Anyhow some random musing.
Because he believes in decency and humanity and saving earth from overheating. En being solidaire.
https://youtu.be/OygHnodf0XM?si=B3JbJ6oMYbLxphRZ
Quite an observation. History does not repeat itself. But it does rhyme. Because successful schemes work.
There’s a resurgence in challenging these -mostly by women I suggest -through social media.
The economic challenges and isolation isn’t specific to young men.
It’s been fused to these challenges to masculinity for personal notoriety and political gain.
https://www.pinkerite.com/p/who-is-behind-pinkerite_25.html?m=1
Kids now have far more influences than I ever had growing up and it must be a nightmare navigating them all.
As always, women/girls talk more and perhaps listen better.
The Left needs to learn why it repelled young men
Give them hope, a voice & a sense of worthiness, they’ll start to support the Left again
But knock them down with snide smugness (as happened) only creates an enemy
Just thinking out loud
Thanks
Women were the breadMAKERS and they were always the glue that built and sustained communities.
If men weren't violent, we wouldn't need protecting. If land was common good, everyone could be fed.
It’s just been ingrained for couple hundred years
Victorian construct apparently
Needless to say women had to battle for much and 2024 women still paid less than men for same jobs eg
But neoliberal dream was to enrich the few at the cost of many, and here we are.
System is bad
It should be protected and supported
Most these days do that or try to 🤭
I was talking about deeper held instincts
As a man, I absolutely detest being seen as someone who has to fit some of societal expectation of a role. I'm just a person and I define my own role. (Same goes for women). I've never had any desire to be a "protector" or whatever.
I wasn’t saying that s how it should be
We have millennia of shit to work through
Democrats come across as finger wagging church ladies.
In families and communities; in genuinely social settings, rather than through the narrower bandwidth and polarising effects of so-called social media.
https://skywriter.blue/pages/georgemonbiot.bsky.social/post/3lbprriebck23
Most Trumpers (male or female) are constant whiners & don’t study deep issues.
They hear about campaigns for oppressed groups, middle class women talking about wage equality in the media (rightly so), but they look at their own often circumstances and feel left behind.
Speaking from a UK perspective, the middle class left have ignored the white working class for too long.
My own observation, also consider reading Chavs by Owen Jones for a journalist approach.
So people take comments as fact but should have been corrected by journalists or editors.
Sadly both views are allowed as fact and viewers allowed to choose
A famous example here in the U.K some years ago.
A t.v debate on global warming, on one side, an eminent professor who'd studied the climate for decades. On the other, a politician who just claimed not to believe the science. Both given equal say.
Capitalism has consumed female labour yet women still carry the bulk of domestic labour and childcare duties in the family. Why would anyone choose to be an indentured servant? Younger men believe it’s their right and they’re entitled and angry.
Like most MAGA misperceptions, it is based on selfishness and fear that Trump masterfully taps into with lies.
You wait until you visit any of these interest groups:
- mumsnet
- yoga
- homeopathy
- beauty tips
- homeschooling parents
- dog walkers
- ”small group” evangelicals
- catholic prayer groups
The machine just finds opposing views and amplifies them.
This isn’t a “man” problem. They are (mostly) the victim as well.
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs in a nutshell.
Generally, western democracies, more so the USA, are becoming more like kleptocracies. Trump's macho gesturing, etc, attracts men that are anti-establishment
Boys are growing up in a world where feminine traits are celebrated and real male role models are lacking. They face the same economic and social challenges as the rest of us, but receive little empathy and have no outlets for sharing their experiences. What is the left offering?
Btw, I'm not recommending a return to that era, but it may explain some current issues.
Those jobs have gone , we need technological skills but are people in those regions taking up training opportunities or just harking back to the past ?
Those trad jobs were hard & dangerous. Don’t wish them on your kids .
Luckily I couldn't vote till I was 21.
The cure? Best guess - positive engagement in something bigger than themselves.
Speaking of Star Wars, this is an Anakin problem.
Anakin is 100% responsible for becoming Darth Vader, but it might have helped if his mom didn't get killed while he was taught to suppress emotions
https://bsky.app/profile/blkntvterraffvi.bsky.social/post/3lbn43dssks23
Young males are prime targets for those that would use their personal issues (and data) against their own interests. Immoral billionaires are using 'tech' to indoctrinate vulnerable elements of our societies.
https://bsky.app/profile/mikeyh71.bsky.social/post/3lbq7ab24wk2j
Seemingly, each way the young men turn, many cannot envisage a future, family, a job, an education, housing etc.
Meanwhile hearing stories of wealthy folk getting wealthier.
Then they hear the hollow promises of the political classes and react accordingly.
This crap. Not all of us. The problem group
In this election was MEN.. by large percentages who turned out to elect a 34 count convicted felon than vote for a woman.
https://www.alfredadler.edu/about/alfred-adler-theory-application/
Pleasing
Moral superiority
Getting/control
Comfort
*Pleasing to avoid rejection,
*Moral superiority to avoid meaninlessness
*Getting/control to avoid hurt/humiliation
*Comfort/avoidance to avoid existential stress.
Each type inturn having less social interest
Pleasing > connection
Moral superiority > count
Getting/control > control
Comfort > courage.
I wonder if they fall into the middle 2?
If so the key to engaging in discussion might be:
Encouraging people to know that they are valued and count.
Getting/control:
Encouraging people to engage in socially useful ways to belong with a sense of control over what is happening around them.
In all cases encouraging their social interest in their wider community?