I had my students play "Civilization" this week, and used it to talk about historical simulations (they also played "The Oregon Trail", as a very different take on a historical simulation game). (We played Civ 2 because it was easiest to emulate in a browser and use as a homework assignment.) - ThreadSky

wellerstein.bsky.social • 15 days ago

I had my students play "Civilization" this week, and used it to talk about historical simulations (they also played "The Oregon Trail", as a very different take on a historical simulation game). (We played Civ 2 because it was easiest to emulate in a browser and use as a homework assignment.)

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jesperhaglund.bsky.social•15 days ago

It's sister, "Colonization" has got to be good for that kind of how we present "thing" discussion, as well.

dougwar40k.bsky.social•15 days ago

Whoa, where'd you get copies of Civ 2?

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

Just Google "civ 2 online" and you'll find DOSBOX/HTML5 versions of it that are emulating Windows 3.11. It more or less works (sometimes crashes).

dazedandconfused56.bsky.social•15 days ago

An interesting thing about Civ is how it chooses to make each civilization unique - eg. what bonuses, leaders, unique units, and even background music each civ has - and how that's kind of a reflection of what the perception of that civilization is in popular culture

dazedandconfused56.bsky.social•15 days ago

The first couple of Civ games had Stalin/Lenin and Mao as leaders for Russia and China respectively, perhaps a holdover from the mentality of the Cold War.

dazedandconfused56.bsky.social•15 days ago

I kind of like how goofy/unrealistic Civ is though. Despite being genuinely in-depth and even educational game, it's still a game where the Egyptians can found Judaism, Washington D.C. is established in 4000 BC, and Gandhi is a nuke-happy warlord. The emphasis is on fun over historical accuracy.

spavel.bsky.social•15 days ago

The Paradox games are an interesting entry into this space. Have you read @bretdevereaux.bsky.social's reviews of Imperator, Crusader Kings, and Europa Universalis as "history simulator" games?

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

I haven't played those games but I have heard about them. One of these days...

spavel.bsky.social•15 days ago

Hearts of Iron is probably the most accessible one, although Crusader Kings is very fun for farting around without any kind of objective

viktorshtrum.bsky.social•15 days ago

Which Oregon Trail? There's a new-ish one right?

ishfery.bsky.social•15 days ago

There is a new Oregon Trail and it's fabulous! https://theoregontrail-game.com/

It's an expanded version with modern storytelling and beautiful art that acknowledges native people existed and still has the overall vibe of the original game

viktorshtrum.bsky.social•15 days ago

Think I'll have to pick it up on Steam!

ishfery.bsky.social•15 days ago

Who can resist a steam sale!

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

I had them play the 1985 Apple II edition (aka, "the original [non-mainframe] edition"). They also read the below book about how it was made, which was meant to complement the gameplay (and it is also an excellent read and intro to thinking about making historical "models" in code) https://amzn.to/4116xPH

viktorshtrum.bsky.social•15 days ago

So cool. Now I'm curious - did they play it on an emulator? I imagine the students would be amazed/confused if they saw an Apple II (heck, I never have)

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

oh of course, had to be an emulator. in a browser: https://oregontrail.ws/games/the-oregon-trail/play/

I then regaled them with stories about what it was like to play this kind of game when I was in school, on clunky old machines that didn't have mice, etc.

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

(At some point I mentioned DOS, and one of them asked: "What is DOS?")

vir-victus.bsky.social•15 days ago

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

We had what felt like a good discussion of it — about what kind of "history game" it is. Of course, it's not a "true" historical simulation, as it is totally counterfactual at its core ("would the Aztecs beat the Romans?" is not a question about actual historical events, obviously).

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

By contrast, "The Oregon Trail" tries to model a first-person experience of a very specific historical time and place, even if it is not trying to model a particular attempt to transit the Oregon Trail.

ishfery.bsky.social•15 days ago

I presume you played the original Oregon Trail due to hardware constraints but you really should check out the new one if you haven't yet.

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

Both of the games at some level are about modeling certain types of historical conditions and forces. "The Oregon Trail" has very specific and localized conditions (and the model is more complex than it might at first seem, as it is trying to loosely model weather impacts as well).

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

"Civ" instead is sort of a top-down "historical forces simulator" whose specific historical content is mostly bound up in text descriptions about specific societies and units and leaders and technologies, but otherwise is a kind of sandbox world that exists outside of space and time.

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

I find both of these games really interesting as objects to "think through" when it comes to thinking about how to represent "history," and the different pedagogical values associated with these kinds of games. They each of advantages and limitations, of course.

wellerstein.bsky.social•15 days ago

I've also been thinking about how I would modify the "tech tree" mechanic, as a historian of science/technology, if I was trying to make it a little bit more... accurate? By accurate I don't mean details (though some of those are quite inaccurate — e.g., lasers before H-bombs), but as a framework.

scolopendra.bsky.social•15 days ago

This reminds me of some of the historical wargames done in military academies. One that comes to mind was a strategic simulation of the run-up to the Peloponnesian War... where everyone kept making the same "mistakes" as history because they were the best options available at the time.

sarahjeong.bsky.social•15 days ago

Crusader Kings 2 (and its various DLC add-ons) is a great one to think about from this perspective as well. CK2, particularly because it's such a poorly designed game, is a great case study, because by incorporating rules re inheritance they accidentally replicated incentives for cousin marriage

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