I've been asked to give a talk about Software Craftsmanship so I'm reading up on the history. Currently feeling rather upset and excluded. So many gendered references. "As aspiring crafts*men*..." I don't remember being this angry about it at the time. Did I change or is the world different now? - ThreadSky

emilybache.com • 69 days ago

I've been asked to give a talk about Software Craftsmanship so I'm reading up on the history. Currently feeling rather upset and excluded. So many gendered references. "As aspiring crafts*men*..." I don't remember being this angry about it at the time. Did I change or is the world different now?

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joefornow.bsky.social•69 days ago

Great point! Especially since the original "programmers" were women. They started the craft, they learned the craft, and they contribute to the craft even today.

jasongorman.bsky.social•69 days ago

Some folks have doggedly refused to budge on the name, but thankfully they haven't had anything new to say about the craft for at 15 years, so we can safely ignore them :-)

jasongorman.bsky.social•69 days ago

I think I was on record at the time with my disdain for manifestos and "masters" and "journeymen" etc.

To quote Mr Zappa: "Movements are stupid"

jasongorman.bsky.social•69 days ago

Anyway, I ran the first ever "Software Craftsmanship" conference. So I win! ;-)

jasongorman.bsky.social•69 days ago

I think it's fair to say - as is often the case - we had a different take on it in Europe than in the US. In particular, I think a lot of us were keen that it shouldn't just be a talking shop, or a cult of personality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeNIp90hAcQ

emilybache.com•69 days ago

Well there seem to have been at least two women at that conference in 2009 - Rachel Davies and Sue Black. Even compared with the rest of the industry at the time it feels like women were underrepresented in the craftsmanship movement. That is probably not a coincidence.

jasongorman.bsky.social•69 days ago

One of the reasons why I rarely speak at conferences now is because I look at the roster of other speakers and think "One more white dude's not gonna help" :-) This is especially true of the craft conferences in eastern Europe. Which is strange, because the % of women in dev is much higher there.

jasongorman.bsky.social•69 days ago

More came to later SC20xx events (as you know), but yes, definitely underrepresented. But isn't that so often the case at developer events?

yveshanoulle.bsky.social•66 days ago

Even back then women already complained about the use of men in the name. I think @lunivore.bsky.social was rather vocal at some point about this (if I remember correctly)

jasongorman.bsky.social•69 days ago

Yes :-)

stevesmithtech.bsky.social•68 days ago

It's one reason amongst several why I've always rejected the craftsman label

deejaygraham.bsky.social•69 days ago

It always stuck me as weird and exclusionary. Coming from a background where my dad was a Joiner and the therefore familiar with the apprentice, journeyman/craftsman, masterpiece, master progression - it was a gatekeeping culture that got copied into software for "legitimacy".

robert.smallshire.no•69 days ago

Isn’t gatekeeping and exclusion* the point? You can’t gain the credential without having demonstrated your skill?

* based on skill, not sex

deejaygraham.bsky.social•69 days ago

Yes but it’s unnecessary legacy code from the guild system. Based on only the “best” deciding who is admitted

robert.smallshire.no•69 days ago

Interesting that we only ever adopted the metaphor, and never the practice. Nobody is crafting masterpieces of software to be allowed admission to anything. Software must be one of the widest open professions. I don’t have a computing – or even computing-adjacent – qualification to my name.

deejaygraham.bsky.social•69 days ago

Imagine if you had to create a piece of software and if it wasn’t up to an arbitrary standard you were failed and could never try again

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

You Sir have a very weird understanding about crafts and the education system behind it. It's not flawless, for sure, but if it were that bad, no one would pass, ever. Which is where actual numbers would disagree with you.

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

3) But the only way this is ever truly going to change is if the customer makes an active choice for products that serve his interest and funding for bad products dries up. In this sense, craftsmanship stands for taking pride in one's work. No FAANG techbro could ever do that.

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

2) The list goes on and on. Gatekeeping however is not the answer, but (if we talk economy terms) the customer should reject abysmal quality. There is a lot of stuff wrong with the way the software (and hardware) industry operates.

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

And that is why we are stuck with an ever worsening state of software. Too many people in the field without an understanding about the fundamentals, too many businesses seeking quick money and disregarding the impact of their short-sighted decisions. A new fad each week.

alexschl.bsky.social•69 days ago

I have gotten more angry over time.

robert.smallshire.no•69 days ago

I've written books with the words 'journeyman', and 'craftsman' in their titles. I wouldn't do so today. Times have changed, and so have we. I don't think there's much to be gained dwelling on the past, but we can do better in future.

robert.smallshire.no•69 days ago

In the interests of full disclosure, I've also written a book with 'master' in the title, for which I offer no apology.

nicoespeon.com•69 days ago

A bunch of communities changed the name for "Crafters" or "Craftpersons"

But it historically wasn't the case 😐

gdinwiddie.bsky.social•68 days ago

I suggest “craftiga” as a gender neutral alternative, but I don’t have the references that led me to that at hand.

stephanroth.bsky.social•66 days ago

I remember that the SoCraTes conference in Soltau (Germany) has been renamed to "International Conference for Software Craft and Testing" some years ago and that the community starts to use "Craftspeople" or "Crafters".

theavangelist.bsky.social•69 days ago

Bummer when the history of computer programming was entirely lead and run by women

marceldevg.bsky.social•69 days ago

Indeed. Check the history.

robbowley.net•69 days ago

There is a certain well known (male of course) figure in the software craftsmanship movement (wrote books etc) who explicitly argued against moving away from crafts*men*

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

The old Uncle also tells people a lot of other stupid things. Many of his professional opinions are IMHO way more dangerous than nitpicking about naming things. Just saying. #oopbad

tekiegirl.bsky.social•68 days ago

He also shows his spots in his books. You can spot the snarks if you are paying attention.

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•68 days ago

That would require me to spend money on his books in order to read them. I'm afraid that would only incentivize him to write even more of those.

tekiegirl.bsky.social•68 days ago

Yes, I can't recommend spending any money on them. I have only accessed them a little on a subscription platform for some research. I stopped very quickly due to the snarks.

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•68 days ago

Maybe - all I know about that is hearsay. But I can say for sure his views on building software are wrong and dangerous. And since a lot of people take his word as gospel on that, that is the far greater danger in my eyes. Doesn't lessen the other issues, though.

tekiegirl.bsky.social•68 days ago

Even if "craftsman" wasn't chosen to exclude it certainly made it easier for men to exclude others. An ego-stroking title for some men.

Craftsperson or crafter are both easy to use and inclusive.

The problem is those with privilege don't tend to realise they are excluding as it doesn't affect them

emilybache.com•67 days ago

I saw this article uses "craftworker" which I don't think I've seen before: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/dec/21/newly-uncovered-sites-reveal-true-power-of-great-viking-army-in-britain although fundamentally I prefer to call myself a software developer, programmer or engineer.

robert.smallshire.no•66 days ago

The urge to draw flawed analogies is a strong one. We should fight it. Programmer or developer are simple and good. Engineering is a good description of what we should be doing.

robert.smallshire.no•66 days ago

A non-metaphorical use of “crafting” as in “making by hand” completely misses the point that the entire job is using our brains to specify machines which do work on our behalf. I don’t believe knowledge work can ever be a literal craft.

stephanroth.bsky.social•66 days ago

The point is: Software development is not a pure engineering discipline. Mechanical engineers, for instance, can create a construction plan of a bridge in CAD and then it can be built from the scratch. In contrast, in software there are many ways and how the code is written is like a craft.

robert.smallshire.no•65 days ago

This is the kind of thing that people who have little to no exposure to physical engineering say. Simulation in the computer is just that, and limited by uncertainly, and approximation. Imperfect knowledge of prevailing conditions has a major impact on outcomes.

ericproegler.com•66 days ago

This is it. “It doesn’t matter, why are you so angry” cohabits with “I don’t want it to change or to apologize.”

If push back is that it doesn’t matter, I have to ask: If it’s not important to you, why not stand aside? Why not believe the person who says it matters?

symckelvie.bsky.social•69 days ago

The world is the way it is and we need to choose our battles, put your energy into your craft - being angry at something like a word created before you were born is a choice that wastes your energy and talent. Rename the talk to something like "Crafting Software" and knock it out the park.

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

Exactly. There is a power to itself in chosing to do things differently and sticking to it. Much more powerful and persuasive than forcing change down people's throat. Be the change you want to see in others.

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

Honestly, a name is just a label. If you want to refer to the same concept by a different label, please do so. I don't care.

I personally have better things to do with the limited time I have in my life than trying to enact change in an uphill battle. Not important enough for me. YMMV

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

The thing I am much more antagonistic about is the belief that will not die in the software world that OOP is the true way. The belief that not managing your software supply chain is a good thing. That not striving for excellence and delivering quality adds value. I care about that, not names.

nativewired.com•69 days ago

I think both.

We just accepted that was how it was…

And the world is slowly changing

francescob.bsky.social•69 days ago

Talking about the next generation, I’m having a hard time getting my daughter interested in computers. She doesn’t seem excited about them, and I think it’s partly because there aren’t many role models she can relate to. People often see video games as ‘for boys,’ same for computers.

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

If your daughter is not excited about computing, you can't make her be. Let her choose her own path, don't force things on her, that will only backfire.

francescob.bsky.social•69 days ago

I agree, but it is not only about my daughter. The percentage of girls interested in IT is pretty low, at least in Italy.

barleslee.bsky.social•69 days ago

A better question to ask your daughter might be “what ARE you interested in”. Then listen to her, and help her pursue that.

theamateurluthier.bsky.social•69 days ago

It is pretty much the same everywhere. Making the field more attractive to talent from the female side however by forcing them to engage in it is the wrong approach. Personally, I think demonstrating that making the machine do the things that you want and presenting that power is better.

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