I don't even think it is a crucial element. If the choice is between sacrificing a child or let an ongoing plague torment humanity, it's right to sacrifice your child. Whether or not you'd be able to do it is a whole different story (and that story is named TLOU) - ThreadSky

businesspikachu.bsky.social • 8 days ago

I don't even think it is a crucial element. If the choice is between sacrificing a child or let an ongoing plague torment humanity, it's right to sacrifice your child. Whether or not you'd be able to do it is a whole different story (and that story is named TLOU)

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mirujaca.bsky.social•8 days ago

The choice was sacrificing a child for A LONG SHOT at saving humanity. A humanity that's already pretty fucked up. A humanity that killed Joel's child.

The strength of the game is not making you think if what Joel does is right. It's making you understand there was no way he'd do anything else.

icrockets.bsky.social•8 days ago

It's both. The strength is in recognizing it as the categorically wrong decision but ALSO the only one the character could conceivably make in the moment. It's nowhere near the same gut punch if the morality is debatable, or worse- as ND seems to believe- above reproach.

mirujaca.bsky.social•8 days ago

It's a morally wrong decision but I don't think letting the Fireflies kill Ellie (without asking her) would be a morally right decision either.

businesspikachu.bsky.social•8 days ago

I read it as the game setting up a binary decision between moral and personal. The game helps you understand Joe, but doesn't attempt to excuse him.

Not saying your interpretation is wrong btw, just not the takeaway I had (plus the game's creator thinks Joe's decision was admirable, so idk)

businesspikachu.bsky.social•8 days ago

**Joel

n0v0w3ls.bsky.social•8 days ago

I think if that was all that they were going for, they would have had Ellie expressly consent to the procedure. Adding that detail suddenly takes it from "moral vs personal" to also just plain morally ambiguous. I think these themes are absolutely correct; I just also think the morality is gray.

icrockets.bsky.social•8 days ago

I'm not sure that would have changed anything. People who are inclined to defend Joel's behavior would just lean into "children can't consent to medical procedures, their brains aren't fully developed"

1fivefive.bsky.social•8 days ago

I think if that were the case, there would have been no reason to lie to her and the entire emotional tension of the next game would be entirely different.

It felt quite clear in the emotional subtext of the latter section of TLOU that Ellie understood death was a strong possibility.

icrockets.bsky.social•8 days ago

Yeah, I've never gotten the impression that Ellie went into this without believing that was an option.

haitchkay.bsky.social•8 days ago

Which would be a fine statement if it wasn't for the fact that the Fireflies plan wouldn't have worked. Which is the *only* reason why people even do the whole "actually Joel was right" stuff. It only works because he was up against comically inept scientists who would have failed anyways.

coltschamps2030.bsky.social•8 days ago

There is zero way id ever sacrifice my daughter for humanity.

suzushiiro.bsky.social•8 days ago

If there's one thing the first game makes pretty clear it's that a cure isn't going to fix shit, so I think any "Joel doomed humanity" argument is null and void.

businesspikachu.bsky.social•8 days ago

That the cure was not going to work anyway, and that Joel therefore didn't actually sacrifice the greater good to save Ellie, reads more like a fan cope theory to me. Also since sacrifice seems be a recurring theme in the game?

businesspikachu.bsky.social•8 days ago

Like this specific conversation between Joel and Ellie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qKC-BiMTX0

1fivefive.bsky.social•8 days ago

Sure, but also largely not the one that people are having.

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