So shocking to see much of what I admire about a country dissolve. Many warned that civilisation is a thin veneer kept together by the good will of a small number of people, holding down a seething mass of forces. I accepted this as a theoretical point but didn’t expect to see it in practice. - ThreadSky

jowolff.bsky.social • 13 days ago

So shocking to see much of what I admire about a country dissolve.

Many warned that civilisation is a thin veneer kept together by the good will of a small number of people, holding down a seething mass of forces. I accepted this as a theoretical point but didn’t expect to see it in practice.

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austenpaulh.bsky.social•12 days ago

It was clear to me from the break up of Yugoslavia.

bbavel.bsky.social•13 days ago

The veneer is thinnest in Christian countries. As for Israel the veneer has been completely removed.

deb7256.bsky.social•12 days ago

Nor did I.

connor95.bsky.social•13 days ago

Whenever I've tried to think of a better way to run a country than our different flavours of democracy, it always ends up as a form of monarchy or something like the Roman Republic.

The caveat always being that the persons at the top must be truly good people. So then I forget it and move on.

jlyons1991.bsky.social•13 days ago

I think I disagree. The idea that the world is brutal underneath, Hobbesian, always seemed questionable to me. People are instead generally decent. So pace your point, it is a small group of people OF ILL WILL who manipulate the masses via lies & coercion into supporting a system of oppression.

jlyons1991.bsky.social•13 days ago

This is partly what I have taken from the work of Rutger Bregman, and David Graeber & David Wenham, plus the Lebanese section of Thomas Friedman’s 1980s book, From Beirut to Jerusalem. Friedman went barmy later, but the way he showed ordinary folk remaking society in the civil war really struck me.

jlyons1991.bsky.social•12 days ago

David Wengrow, of course. David Wenham was a New Testament scholar. Just confused old me.

jlyons1991.bsky.social•13 days ago

The Hebrew Bible stories of Saul and the requests for a king despite explicit warnings of what he would do to the people and their children seem to me to point to them yielding to the idea of a ruling ideology rather than coming up with the idea themselves.

jowolff.bsky.social•13 days ago

I'd like to agree with you. But when order breaks down it can be shocking how many people behave with extreme cruelty to each other.

jlyons1991.bsky.social•13 days ago

Sure, but often they don't. I find that harder to explain than people being inherently cruel. I guess notions of original sin lead to seeing Western societies as systems of control in which states have a monopoly on violence. But no reason to see this as good order unless it breaks down.

jlyons1991.bsky.social•13 days ago

Lol, the BBC have just shown an item where ten wallets were deliberately lost across Belfast with a phone number for people to call if they found one. How many called to return the wallets? All of them. Love the timing.

jowolff.bsky.social•12 days ago

I think MAGA types would return the wallets too. It’s not about individual selfishness but rather what people will do when the circumstances encourage mass victimisation.

jlyons1991.bsky.social•12 days ago

I guess the question is how easy is it to create the circumstances which take people to that point. It may seem easy enough, but a lot of effort has to go into dehumanising a minority group. Even then, e.g., the Einsatzgruppen police battalions found mass executions disturbing psychologically.

joemuggs.bsky.social•12 days ago

Society's forces unchecked are elemental. They can be as constructive or destructive as fire or water.

auld-boy.bsky.social•13 days ago

Sobering isn't it

glennfishbine.com•13 days ago

There are many ways to rebuild civilization. This is one way. Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oO6lyL-kGbX7iP0g1R8YcfVM5T-Ah4yI/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=110212880619803273946&rtpof=true&sd=true

secularsadie.bsky.social•12 days ago

If you're part of a minority there is no veneer. 'Civilisation' has always been absent

elsbethhea.bsky.social•12 days ago

Going back to origins, more like the reverse. Civilization was something minorities modelled and demanded from majorities. It got elite-captured of course, as everything does eventually. But it put up a good fight in Hume, Elias, etc.

tink51.bsky.social•12 days ago

It's like if Lord of the Flies was written about adults.

ianpchristie.bsky.social•12 days ago

Yes, and rarely have we had a clearer demonstration that democracy depends ultimately on ethos and willingness to uphold norms. In the end, the US disaster is the product of elite complacency about norms/guardrails (especially corporate donations) & dire neglect of civic education and formation.

jenrichards.bsky.social•13 days ago

I agree. My "dual" son is due to visit us in May, and I have friends due to go to conferences. It's very concerning

kcbird3.bsky.social•13 days ago

Europe, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Korea, Japan, Singapore, South Africa, South America, Central America and other similar countries NEED TO BAND TOGETHER TO CREATE A NEW WORLD ECONOMY AND ALLIANCES NOW BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE! USE THE EURO INSTEAD OF THE DOLLAR AND TARIFF EVERYTHING MADE IN US! NOW!

thm46.bsky.social•13 days ago

We are in profound distress at this moment.

marshallcolman.bsky.social•13 days ago

The election was decided by 2m votes cast. When the parties are so far apart, 2% can make a revolution.

gregwa.bsky.social•12 days ago

It's like watching the cultural equivalent of someone falling into a severe psychotic episode. Once it begins nothing 'reasonable' can pull them out of it.

dickiedavies.bsky.social•12 days ago

So much for the argument for a written constitution in the UK.
PR has got to be the way forward despite what Toolmakerson says.

susankay81.bsky.social•12 days ago

I find myself reading advertisements for obtaining a second passport, especially one from the EU. This fantasy is one of escape, and not possible for most of my compatriots.

keithwilson.eu•13 days ago

Didn’t we already see this happen with Brexit? The Trump takeover is on a bigger scale of course, but the same root causes and malign influences are behind both.

jowolff.bsky.social•13 days ago

Agreed - though the speed and scale now is extraordinary.

jenrichards.bsky.social•13 days ago

Ridiculous thing is that my son is an employer. He is responsible for quite a few people's
salaries

givemeliberte.bsky.social•12 days ago

I concur, and I wasn't prepared for the pace of the dissolution. After Biden won it felt like maybe we had turned a page and then everything everywhere seemed to fall apart all at once.

givemeliberte.bsky.social•12 days ago

There was a palpable change in public discourse that I couldn't square. Friends I had known since childhood started saying things unimaginable to me months earlier. It was as if the entire country had been gripped by some virus of the subconscious.

paycottage.bsky.social•12 days ago

I experienced similar with Brexit, not on this scale, but still… similar.

paycottage.bsky.social•12 days ago

That’s exactly what is so worrying…

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