Farmers. They need to lay out – transparently – what average pre-tax profits are for, say, a £4m farm and a £10m farm. At the moment the debate is polarised between: a) they’re greedy rich bastards b) they’re impoverished suppliers of our food. The NFU needs to supply income data, not assets - ThreadSky

harrywallop.co.uk • 97 days ago

Farmers. They need to lay out – transparently – what average pre-tax profits are for, say, a £4m farm and a £10m farm.
At the moment the debate is polarised between:
a) they’re greedy rich bastards b) they’re impoverished suppliers of our food.
The NFU needs to supply income data, not assets

Comments

jameshandscombe.bsky.social•97 days ago

Who is paying millions of pounds for loss-making land? It sounds like a strange version of market failure to me.

jontia.bsky.social•97 days ago

Averages won't help. Half of farms that have benefitted from the IHT exemption have no income. Bringing average profit down massively. You'd need specific case studies highlighting the difference between farmers and tax-loopholers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/01/farmers-shocked-budget-inheritance-tax-estates

phillyrothers.bsky.social•96 days ago

If their farmland is only providing a 0.5% ROI as widely claimed then incentivising them to sell off chunks is doing them a favour with respect to their productivity.

contrarybass.bsky.social•97 days ago

It’ll vary by type too - as far as I’m aware, arable is more likely to be profitable than sheep farming, say.

fofinterviews.bsky.social•97 days ago

The tractors are worth 100s of 1000s of pounds each. These farmers in London are essentially driving around Trafalgar Sq in gold plated Bentleys - telling us how hard up they are.

stonelli.bsky.social•97 days ago

I am skeptical about impoverished farmers but tractors are clearly a tool. Bentleys are indulgent because they don't achieve anything more than a Toyota Aygo. That's not the same as a work tool.

fofinterviews.bsky.social•97 days ago

My brother in law's tractor is like a palace inside. The fanciest tool I've ever seen. He never wants to leave it.

wohyeahwohyeah.bsky.social•96 days ago

How did farmers cope before this loophole came in during the 1990s though?

smithmichaelw.bsky.social•96 days ago

Also remember many "Family" Farms are owned by Families - and unless there is a very tragic accident they don't pass on as one entity very often with siblings etc. normally involved hence the data from the Gov being quite different.

legalollie.bsky.social•97 days ago

There's a disconnect between the asset value and income. *looks pointedly at Dyson and Clarkson's tax advisors*

mysteryhour.bsky.social•96 days ago

Why? Separate farmland from property assets and we can move on. Crop fields should not be taxed. In fact they shouldn’t be owned by individuals IMHO - too many farmer’s offspring sell an acre or two for a few million so they don’t have to become farmers!

dbanksy.bsky.social•96 days ago

An acre or two will net them less than £20k.

mysteryhour.bsky.social•96 days ago

With planning it’s worth £1.2 million an acre, that’s the problem!

xukdax.bsky.social•96 days ago

The thing is, that income may still end up looking low, because family farms will pay the types of bills that regular people pay from the farm accounts, so when a farmer gives their net income, that's after all major bills have been paid.

harrywallop.co.uk•97 days ago

And journalists covering this story need to ask farmers this question!
I’m sure it’s possible that a farm worth £6million in assets makes v little money. And a 20% IHT bill spread over 10years will be a cost that tips this farm from profit to loss.
But it’d be good to see the P&Ls

mutleyboy.bsky.social•97 days ago

If anyone would like to donate me a £6m farm (with a house please) I'm pretty confident I can make a profit. I'll report back in a few years & i'll hold my hand up if I'm wrong.

holloway1000.bsky.social•96 days ago

But, as my fathers business accountant told him many years ago, “if after everything it’s still showing a profit, I’ve not done my job correctly”

nickmfgtv.bsky.social•96 days ago

This is, indeed, the point. I used to do farm accounts as a junior accountant and was reprimanded if the profit figure generated a weighty tax liability.

ianhunter.bsky.social•97 days ago

If it’s worth £6m, that’s because someone will pay £6m for it. That suggests either (1) someone can make a decent income from it worth £6m in capital terms, or (2) the IHT break on the land means it is worth £6m to a wealthy investor. I don’t care which - either way the IHT break should go.

slamb.bsky.social•96 days ago

Can we eat the rich

paulrogers.bsky.social•97 days ago

Also worth pointing out that presumably they are paid before profit is calculated. So they're not trying to pay their personal food bills etc from the tiny profits that are being mentioned in interviews.

braunton-mark.bsky.social•97 days ago

Yep, virtually everything is expensed. Profit is very misleading

holloway1000.bsky.social•96 days ago

Plus housing costs, car, fuel, and associated expenses.

leguape.bsky.social•97 days ago

Headline Total Income From Farming (TIFF) does exist https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/total-income-from-farming-in-the-uk but it varies wildly by sector. AHDB has some for dairy sector but not others that I can find https://ahdb.org.uk/dairy/farm-business-income

murderexampress.bsky.social•96 days ago

Exactly this. As the 'man on the street' I have no idea of knowing the facts of this. Hard to know who to trust.

brushingboots.bsky.social•97 days ago

I'm not convinced averages are that helpful as each business is different and year on year there are varied challenges – harvest can easily be thrown by rain etc. I'm not personally hearing much (public) protest from rich farmers – mostly from those for whom business is genuinely extremely marginal

danielphilips.bsky.social•96 days ago

That’s true of pretty much all industries average matter.

h0d0r.bsky.social•97 days ago

I'm finding the reporting frustrating because it's wall to wall coverage of Farmers saying they're going to lose everything, not specifying the reasons why and not being challenged on what challenges it will bring

radiohead319.bsky.social•97 days ago

They seem to be saying they need some kind of support/recognition after Johnson brexited and they lost their subsidies. If so, let's consider new *farming* subsidies shaped by what the nation needs, not tax breaks for stockbrokers!

stonelli.bsky.social•97 days ago

Is the onus not on the government to do this rather than the farmers? While I see wealth in farming families and want them to pay fair tax, I still think it's for the gov to show their actions are fair, not the people being taxed.

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