D&D 4th Edition was perfectly fine, just had tonal issues that went against expectations for D&D. We really need to bring UX/UI experts in to completely rethink rulebook layout and ESPECIALLY character sheets. So much is done the way it is because that's what Gygax and Arneson did. - ThreadSky

gamerstavernshow.com • 6 days ago

D&D 4th Edition was perfectly fine, just had tonal issues that went against expectations for D&D.

We really need to bring UX/UI experts in to completely rethink rulebook layout and ESPECIALLY character sheets. So much is done the way it is because that's what Gygax and Arneson did.

Reposted from Flintlock (parody account)

Unpopular RPG opinions, go!

Gygax got lucky as the fact every RPG he made after D&D was shit proves.

Also, Braunstein is far more interesting than D&D and Chainmail anyway.

Vampire the Requiem is superior to Masquerade in every single way apart from the sole exception of appealing to nostalgia.
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Comments

flintlock.bsky.social•6 days ago

I think at least some of the negative reaction to 4e was to do with WotC fuckery (abandoning the promised digital support being a big one) rather than the game itself.

kenburnside.bsky.social•6 days ago

I was the marketing director for Amarillo Design Bureau (publishers of Star Fleet Battles) at the time, as we were launching Federation Commander.

I used the WoTC 4e ads/videos as examples of "Don't Do This."

As a game design, I liked 4e. It regularized things, and gave well-bounded decisions.

kenburnside.bsky.social•6 days ago

It had a problem with complexity ramping, it had some tonal problems...and it was still too much of a skirmish wargame with some roleplaying frosting on top.

(We played it through 14th level, and got to the point where you needed two pages of notes to remember *everything* your character could do.)

flintlock.bsky.social•6 days ago

I thought it was in a weird halfway position there. It was more of an explicit skirmish wargame than the D&D market would handle (D&Ders have preferred that to be less obvious since 2e at least), but it also felt it hadn't learnt much from later developments in narrative skirmish wargaming.

kenburnside.bsky.social•6 days ago

You're not wrong. I know people who play 4e in Arena mode: Bring two PCs with level X, Y gold, I'll bring two PCs with level X, Y gold, we put them on the map, and see who wins.

And it works for that. So does Pathfinder 2e in a lot of ways.

I could easily see Pathfinder: Frosthaven working.

kenburnside.bsky.social•6 days ago

I understand why WoTC made the 5e choices they did; they wanted to re-open the game to new players, so it's much less of a bag of legos to make your own perfect combo platter of abilities with.

kenburnside.bsky.social•6 days ago

I play Pathfinder 2e, and write 3D space combat sims. I have a high tolerance for combo platters of mechanical abilities.

Pathfinder 2e OrgPlay games at about 9th level on up run _slow_ because players haven't played *this* character in 4-5 months, and have to look things up mid-game.

kenburnside.bsky.social•6 days ago

Pathfinder 2e (shhhh) is a spiritual descendent of D&D 4e more than Pathfinder 1e. It's a good game, with less ability-collecting than 4e did.

It still has a solo play mode called "fantasy shopping for superpowers from the Paizo catalog" that's...incompatible with play-with-others at the table.

spavel.bsky.social•6 days ago

I don't think UI people are going to help, really. What you want is content design. Probably also educational design which is a separate field of practice.

raynegrimm.bsky.social•6 days ago

This touches on what I was saying because for me perosnally and it seems many others rule book layouts are not done well. The order and structures aren't conducive to learning and end up confusing folks especially if they've never played before

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

Intro to the setting - what's a TTRPG? - Very basic game rules devoid of all context - Character creation - Character options - Shopping (feats, traits, equipment, etc.) - THEN we get to basic game rules - more complex combat - additional rules (magic, hacking, vehicles, etc.) - GM stuff - bad index

raynegrimm.bsky.social•6 days ago

No but for real I have had the opportunity to read and assist in some editing in folks game systems and when you put character creation so soon, especially with such a bare bones rules explination if at all folks end up making decisions that they don't k ow the ramifications of

Whike I know rules

raynegrimm.bsky.social•6 days ago

aren't INTENDED to be read like a book they really should be structured in a better capacity

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

I'm farely certain seemingly every RPG book is organized like that is solely because that's how Basic D&D originally was. And nobody's questioned if that's the best way to organized them to 1) learn the rules and 2) reference them after learning them - TWO DIFFERENT GOALS!!

ericfarmer.bsky.social•6 days ago

Mouse Guard is the only substantially-sized RPG I know that's meant to be learned going from front to back. Consequently, it's easy to learn, but a PITA to reference.

darkestadam.bsky.social•6 days ago

I was thinking I'd love a version of Apocalypse World 2e that cuts out all the rules examples as a reference tome.

tdungeonator.bsky.social•6 days ago

While I love the game, the rulebook for Blades in the Dark is particularly bad. No summaries of play, no quick cheat sheets of districts and their effects, information seems scattered randomly across the book. Granted, I'm using a pdf, but still.

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

People are too harsh on the "I only want to learn 5e" . RPG systems get very complex with (outside microRPGs) the smallest RPG rulebook larger than the largest board game rulebook. People don't have time for multiple systems when RPGs are just a small hobby activity for them.

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

"How do I do X in 5e?" "Switch to Pathfinder/Shadowdark/OSR/random indie game!!" You people are exhausting. You need to chill, please I'm begging you. You're worse than linux evangelicals.

raynegrimm.bsky.social•6 days ago

Ngl I've put off learning pathfinder almost exclusively because I just didn't want to deal with the mentality.

Like obviously only dnd people are also frustrating but it's like way to be uninviting

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

I don't like roll-under systems. I understand intellectually it's the exact same odds as roll-over and can make mechanics easier to understand. Skill goes up as you improve, roll lower than the skill, easy. I just can't get past thinking it's wrong to shout with joy "I ROLLED A ONE!"

raynegrimm.bsky.social•6 days ago

I've noticed perosnally that especially in Americans that rollling low isn't recieved well. There's something in our psyche that doesnt seem to like subtraction in games.

We must have big numbers to mean we did well 🤣

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

I don't get many people's knee-jerk reaction against third-party products. I know 3.x had a lot of bloat of broken supplements, but these days there are many products (some from game line's creators) published under open licenses by third parties that are great.

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

Oh! This goes back to the UI/UX thing - We need to understand core rulebooks are serving two different and often conflicting goals!!

First, they're teaching the rules to new players.

Second, they're used as reference guides that are already known but details/clarification is needed.

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

Another thing 4e did properly was released a no-frills cheap Rules Compendium book that was nothing but the rules and rulings organized in alphabetical order that was meant SOLELY to be a referenge guide at the table for a reasonable price. Good organization and proper index.

nickpiers.bsky.social•6 days ago

On a related note, how do you feel about Palladium's system, if you've played it? (Rifts, TMNT, Heroes Unlimited etc)

I have a nostalgic bias for it, even if I admit it's often a broken, unbalanced system.

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

It's broken, unbalanced, and dated. Sometimes in some very bad ways, like the infamous mental illness random table they couldn't help themselves but include in TMNT even as it flew off shelves going to children due to the kid-friendly turn the franchise took.

"Mommy, what's 'necrophilia' mean?"

nickpiers.bsky.social•6 days ago

Yiiiiiikes, I often skip the mental illness section. I hadn't even considered that.

epicendymion.bsky.social•6 days ago

It's not worth to learn a new system when trying to fill a specific 'fantasy'. Between 3rd party content, flavor and even house rules 5e can be most things.

New systems should be learned under the context of being fresh and new. Not as a replacement for a house rule

epicendymion.bsky.social•6 days ago

I second this. Especially with very crunchy system like pathfinder.

Not everyone wants to pick up a new system with rules for every interaction. People should be able to just play 5e with a few tweaks.

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

I don't agree with sentiment "everything needs to be 5e" as that system works for a very specific type of gaming - combat-first adventure and action-adventure stories that involve fantasy (or sci-fi tech that functions as magic). Stretch too far beyond that, it falls apart.

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

That said, I just don't like the attitude people have toward people who know 5e and want to play something outside that genre and the condescension of "Just use This System" like everyone has time to read a 150 page book (for "rules lite) to 500+ page tome to 1000 page three-volume set.

gamerstavernshow.com•6 days ago

There's a middle ground out there somewhere between "Make everything 5e" and "Spend days learning a complex bespoke rules system for every single genre or tonal shift you make in gaming even if it's just for a one-shot".

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