Of course France didn't look so good in 1868 but the counterfactual I had suggested was, if Prussia had not expanded territorially westward after 1795, western Germany might have had a more accelerated liberal institutional development. If that's true, then Prussian absorption 'delayed' it - ThreadSky

pseudoerasmus.bsky.social • 73 days ago

Of course France didn't look so good in 1868 but the counterfactual I had suggested was, if Prussia had not expanded territorially westward after 1795, western Germany might have had a more accelerated liberal institutional development. If that's true, then Prussian absorption 'delayed' it

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phkrause.bsky.social•73 days ago

Erm, *even* more accelerated? But yes, if Westphalen and Berg had stayed independent (inside the German Bund) post-1815, a lot of history could have gone very differently.

phkrause.bsky.social•73 days ago

Before I start reading up on the Westphalian gov't: The larger point to me remains that FF is far more persuasive than AJR about Prussia being very functional in interstate competition ca. 1688-1848, not in spite of but because of its top-down governance.

phkrause.bsky.social•73 days ago

Imperial Germany as a case of autocratic modernization as a sort of precursor to the 20thC cases still looks very iffy to me, because of how incremental liberalization took off, and governance 1890-1914 was such a hot mess that they couldn't have autocrated themselves out of a paper bag

pseudoerasmus.bsky.social•73 days ago

But this is why my first post in this thread is about the superiority of FF to AJR !!! AJR's views on Prussia in the Narrow Corridor are borrowed from FF and drastically simplified for their simpler framework. But that's just true of the whole book: best ideas are borrowed from FF, but dumbed down

pseudoerasmus.bsky.social•73 days ago

"Prussia being very functional in interstate competition ca. 1688-1848, not in spite of but because of its top-down governance."

But that does not contradict my statements. I've NOT questioned Prussian state capacity -- only the evolution of accountable govt in Germany under Prussian inflluence

phkrause.bsky.social•73 days ago

Absolutely - I‘m underscoring the large agreement and modest disagreement, world-historically speaking.

pseudoerasmus.bsky.social•73 days ago

FF very usefully divides the theme of his 2-volume book into three: effective state formation, rule of law, and accountability or democratisation. I've focused only on the latter 2 in our discussion about Germany.

pseudoerasmus.bsky.social•73 days ago

I think it's a pretty simple point. The revolutionaries of 1848 were stronger in the west than in the east, but the Prussian annexation of Westphalia & Rhineland as a result of Vienna 1815 brought the conservative reaction westward.

phkrause.bsky.social•73 days ago

Yup - very clear and setting up an intriguing what if. The details of the Vienna settlement weren’t overdetermined, I *think*.

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