I am struck by how it seems like globally, the autocrats and would-be autocrats are well aware that their interests are aligned against democracy. It seems to me that we greatly need of a matching 'liberal' (in the international sense) international movement dedicated to preserving democracies. - ThreadSky

bretdevereaux.bsky.social • 85 days ago

I am struck by how it seems like globally, the autocrats and would-be autocrats are well aware that their interests are aligned against democracy.

It seems to me that we greatly need of a matching 'liberal' (in the international sense) international movement dedicated to preserving democracies.

Comments

lw4.bsky.social•85 days ago

They are all working together: Trump/Republicans/evangelicals, Putin, Xi, Madero, Kim Jong Un, Farage, etc. It will take a global effort to stop them. Once they get the US to fully join them, the US will become the tip of the spear for fascism throughout the planet.

spanishspy.bsky.social•84 days ago

also Netanyahu

lw4.bsky.social•84 days ago

And the rulers of Turkey, Poland and Egypt among many others.

spanishspy.bsky.social•84 days ago

Poland fortunately got rid of Duda but your point stands

mitch-henke.bsky.social•85 days ago

I don't think we can say they're working together. They're definitely watching each other, learning from each other, and taking notes, but it's not some concerted conspiracy. It's just people being incredibly selfish

lw4.bsky.social•85 days ago

They are absolutely working together. They are attending each other’s conferences and communicating with each other. Read “Autocracy Inc” for a good survey of what’s happening in front of us.

This is not a conspiracy. They are doing it in the open.

mitch-henke.bsky.social•85 days ago

I feel like I can pretty confidently say Kim Jung Un isn't in the loop on it

lw4.bsky.social•84 days ago

Not only is Kim in on it, North Korea has about 10,000 troops in Ukraine. Destabilizing democracy is open to any dictator.

mitch-henke.bsky.social•84 days ago

That's less Kim trying to overthrow democracy and more him trying to get resources from Russia for their missile/nuclear program. Pure self interesr, not a conspiracy

lw4.bsky.social•85 days ago

It’s documented in the book. Don’t get caught up in East-West, capitalist-communist, US-Russia dichotomies. There are actors within these nations, including Kim and the US, working to bring down democracy.

francescodanieli.bsky.social•85 days ago

@anneapplebaum.bsky.social recently published a book on that, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/183932735-autocracy-inc I don't know if you have read it

alexandergruchala.bsky.social•85 days ago

We can call the democrats the Allies.

And the autocrats the Axis.

uscivilwar.bsky.social•85 days ago

I should say, does not the history of Greece and Rome alone demonstrate the clear preference for governments to deal with similar governments? The Spartans tried to impose oligarchy on Athens, the Romans always did best where they could find and co-opt a similar elite class & etc.

bretdevereaux.bsky.social•85 days ago

Also the existence of high-functioning, wealthy democracies is itself quite bad for autocracies, as it challenges the very basis of their strong-man legitimacy if the strongman can't actually deliver more strength than the People themselves can summon.

culthero12.bsky.social•85 days ago

Also worth noticing that the technology and industrial base degrades, or at least has a hard time advancing, in autocracy. North Korea and South Korea are a pretty stark example!

bretdevereaux.bsky.social•85 days ago

Like, Putin is fundamentally correct that a free Ukraine in NATO and the EU is a threat to him, not militarily, but because a free Ukraine in the EU would become rich and because it would be in NATO, he could not crush it with bombs.

And the Russians might notice how much better life there is.

uscivilwar.bsky.social•85 days ago

In addition to the specific factors in a given time, place & context. I am reminded of Tolkein. I can't recall where, but in LotR Gandalf commented that Sauron would crush and despoil the Shire really for the pettiest of reasons. It would offended him to think of anyone, anywhere free and happy.

dell-adams.bsky.social•85 days ago

"They hate our freedom" except for real

scooterbones.bsky.social•84 days ago

A "free" Ukraine in the EU would get strangled out and sold for parts like the other EU periphery states

jghotier.bsky.social•84 days ago

I’ve said this before, but it certainly does seem - or is plausible - that a global democracy takeover is taking place

pepperonidave.bsky.social•85 days ago

How about a democracy that meets the needs of the people?

vemmikado.bsky.social•85 days ago

Why don't we just copy Star Wars have a grand republic and safeguards against the Darkside of the force?

riley37.bsky.social•85 days ago

Do you mean something like Amnesty International, or perhaps something more like this?

https://iad.ngo/

dzman.bsky.social•85 days ago

I agree. But it also looks like more and more that people are rising up against the same authoritarians demanding their rights. I can only hope we do the same when our time comes

citationheeded.bsky.social•84 days ago

I used to think that; now I'm not so sure. I think that what you refer to as the imperfect quality of liberalism is more feature than bug, how its high water marks arise out of some sort of othering and illiberal action. Norms get weaponized. Still worthwhile, but maybe more end than means?

andrewgroff.bsky.social•85 days ago

Georgia ( the country) seems to be going that way in their current election.

bretdevereaux.bsky.social•85 days ago

There have been glimmers of this, mostly around support for Ukraine (e.g. NAFO), but it feels like a lot of that energy has declined (in part due to the slow decay of Twitter, where NAFO grew).

But mostly we have national democracies and international autocracy and I think that's a weakness.

bretdevereaux.bsky.social•85 days ago

In any case, three cheers for the people of South Korea, who would not let their democracy be taken from them.

For more on what I mean when I talk about liberalism and its importance (because I don't just mean 'the left'), see this post: https://acoup.blog/2024/07/05/collections-the-philosophy-of-liberty-on-liberalism/

tbas7000.bsky.social•85 days ago

How about the people of Georgia the last 6 days too?

niallsanderson.bsky.social•85 days ago

They’ve been going off, but Georgian Dream has shown no sign of folding just yet. I feel like it’s only a matter of time before they do though

rattatatouille.bsky.social•85 days ago

I think part of the reason democracies rarely have internationalist appeal is that we're still in an era of nation-states. One people's collective interests may conflict with that of another's. In the Global South even more democratic countries look askance at the US, for example.

libertyprimeusa.bsky.social•85 days ago

I've also heard speculation that even democratic nations prefer to work with autocratic nations because autocratic get results in time for the next election. How true this is would be beyond me.

ryukyu-hsr.bsky.social•84 days ago

That's not really true. NATO is an alliance of mostly democracies. And the most deeply integrated international organisation, the EU, only accepts democracies into the club

libertyprimeusa.bsky.social•84 days ago

It is, though the argument, from what I understand of it, is that they can be rather cozy with autocracies in 'less developed' parts of the world.

ryukyu-hsr.bsky.social•84 days ago

I wonder how much of that is contingent. In Latin America these days the dictatorships tend to be anticapitalist (Venezuela, Cuba) so no wonder they have bad relations with the 1st world.

India however is an interesting case, quite democratic but insists on hedging against the US with Russia

rattatatouille.bsky.social•85 days ago

Remember all those coups the US at best turned a blind eye towards? During the Cold War the US wasn't a champion of democracy so much as it was a champion of capitalism, so it threw democratic regimes under the bus if they were a bit too cozy with the Soviets.

libertyprimeusa.bsky.social•85 days ago

But I have seen lots of praise for dictators who 'get things done' and lead 'bold modernization' in American newspapers. From Chiang Kai Shek to Musharraf.

rattatatouille.bsky.social•85 days ago

And guess what those guys had in common (hint hint: a willingness to work with Washington more than Moscow or Beijing).

At the end of the day if someone's support of democracy is dampened by their geopolitics... it's no wonder defending it is hard.

houfek.bsky.social•84 days ago

That's a delicate matter since perceptions of outside ("globalist") actors "meddling in domestic politics" plays right into the narratives of illiberal populists.

77swolf.bsky.social•84 days ago

Slow down. All things will pass.

chefsam.bsky.social•85 days ago

Like NAFO.

bazhko.bsky.social•85 days ago

Well one thing that really set Korea apart is that the center-right party is coming out strongly against this bullshit.

tapati.bsky.social•85 days ago

Democracies try to put systems in place to prevent the looting of taxpayers funds and to support individual liberty.

Greedy autocrats of course will fight those systems.

Their efforts are aided by citizens' bigoted reactions to immigrants driven by racism. We need to counter that somehow.

delsamuels.bsky.social•85 days ago

That's because the western world was never really democratically alligned. It always followed the money and was happy to fund fascists and dictators. Most capatalist democracies flirt with fascism and have fascistic tendencies.

bretdevereaux.bsky.social•85 days ago

And yet somehow have a wildly better track record on liberties, freedom and quality of life than non-capitalist countries, which manage a close to 100% totalitarian atrocity-machine rate.

delsamuels.bsky.social•84 days ago

Yes, liberties for the inner center of the capatalist empire, not for the countries and cultures it sacrifices for profit.

bretdevereaux.bsky.social•84 days ago

Yeah, man, I mean the era of neo-liberal economic policy has been absolutely terrible for people in developing countries.

Wait ::touches earpiece:: actually, I'm hearing that it is the only era in human history to see a sustained decline in global poverty.

Huh.

bretdevereaux.bsky.social•84 days ago

The error here is, in a sense, to go looking for the 'causes' of poverty and want. Poverty and want are the *normal* conditions of humans for all of recorded history.

Prosperity is what is new, the thing being caused. And liberal economic regimes are a big part of what causes it.

delsamuels.bsky.social•83 days ago

You forget that many of the liberties we have today were done first in the Soviet Union, and the pressure from proximity caused European nations to follow suit with more liberal ideals. History is written by the survivors, and prosperity and liberty are only guaranteed if we demand it.

eafirstlast.bsky.social•85 days ago

Democracy is for white people (or was, even that is shifting these days). Everyone else gets the boot.

There have been a few actual non capitalist democracies. Until the USA helped overthrow them. Because they are almost universally predicated on cleaning up the massive exploitation they face

el-intrepido.bsky.social•85 days ago

Over-tolerance seems to be the driving force here. First, the over-tolerance of Billionaires. Then, the over-tolerance of hate groups. Lastly, the over-tolerance of low education and engagement.

bctallis.bsky.social•84 days ago

Welcome to #NeoIdealism!

Here’s a taste - more in my forthcoming book ‘Turning Point’ & in the links in this essay
As well as in my previous book ‘To Ukraine With Love’

https://macdonaldlaurier.ca/neo-idealism-grand-strategy-for-the-future-of-the-transatlantic-community/

sjshancoxli.liberalcurrents.com•84 days ago

you can see this reflected in the language people use--in particular, the move from "the free world" to "the rules-based international order." over the past few decades there was the deliberate move away from prioritizing democracy and towards "being a good player" in the international system

sjshancoxli.liberalcurrents.com•84 days ago

and of course always with the subterranean hope that by becoming lawful and capitalist you would naturally become liberal too. our engagement with china was predicated on this! unfortunately,

karla-kloppstock.bsky.social•84 days ago

Was that hope anything other than an excuse to try and enforce globally a specific mode of capitalism, a capitalism with a predefined food-chain? And isn't that exactly what brought us here? The absence of actual global solidarity, mere signaling of the virtue of democracy is nurturing autocrats.

idogcapital.bsky.social•84 days ago

Imo there was a widely-held belief that as nations developed economically (into capitalism), they would naturally develop civically (into liberal democracy). It was more than hope, but far less than doctrine. For many nations overshadowed by China, such as Vietnam, this was indeed the case.

sjshancoxli.liberalcurrents.com•84 days ago

and so now we're confronting an international authoritarian movement with a relatively clear self-conception even as we've spent years sapping the foundations of our own countervailing order

sjshancoxli.liberalcurrents.com•84 days ago

but the truth is democracy is better! freedom is better! we shouldn't be neutral on these matters! that was a bad idea actually!

scooterbones.bsky.social•84 days ago

I think you're thinking of the CIA and the NED

maciekzajac.bsky.social•84 days ago

@bctallis.bsky.social has a book about what he calls New Idealism, seems to be exactly this, though it is a small club of countries, perhaps his criteria are too restrictive

bctallis.bsky.social•84 days ago

Thanks for flagging this! It’s not a small group of countries - it’s an approach open to any who pursue it - and I point to tendencies beyond those countries I’ve identified as being more consistently neo-idealist.
At heart it’s a way to live democracies promise & win against authoritarians

maciekzajac.bsky.social•84 days ago

Still, you seem to insist on certain level of consistency in both foreign policy and internal affairs - you pointedly excluded Poland under its previous government over (valid, btw) concerns about internal policy. Where could I read up on how exactly does your threshold work?

drmisserin.bsky.social•85 days ago

I sorta thought for a while there we were headed for a Star Trek Federation. Obama and Macron and all those dudes. Then we tried to elect a woman president and American men decided to knock us back to the age of colonialism.

roberturbanek.bsky.social•85 days ago

Stop pretending the U.S. is a democracy. More than 300 million Americans have no effective representation in Congress.
https://www.robertsurbanek.com/politics.html

bretdevereaux.bsky.social•85 days ago

No.

stirlingnewberry.bsky.social•84 days ago

It's called trade and free medical care and a retirement.

jedwillard.bsky.social•85 days ago

Yeah. Weird, that.

walmsley.bsky.social•85 days ago

liberal democracies have become too complacent in their belief that liberal democracy is an inevitable form of government. it is not, and it is going to be necessary to fight and fight aggressively to preserve it going forward.

77swolf.bsky.social•84 days ago

Great point.

walmsley.bsky.social•85 days ago

you can't rely on "norms" or "the rules-based order" to protect you when your opponents are people who reject the legitimacy of anything other than force as an organizing principle for society.

ragathiel.bsky.social•85 days ago

I think those people have their own sense of inevitability that's no more true, and I don't think they'll like living in a world of force alone.

mutantmell.net•85 days ago

Right, I think even most of these rich autocrats have no idea what they’re giving up by rejecting liberal democracy.

ragathiel.bsky.social•85 days ago

It might be fun to be the Rule Breaker in a fundamentally rules-based system, it's probably less fun to be that way when the protection of others' restraint goes away.

tooraloom.bsky.social•85 days ago

I agree with your intuition that the answer lies to the left. I think, however, preserving democracy must mean advocating against the ideas that undermined democratic ideals to the point of collapse -- I think the solution starts with acknowledging the problem. Global autocracy isn't an accident.

Comments

Posting Rules

Reply