So many people defending capitalism in the replies. Acting like RT is some godsend to make gamedev easier. When in actuality it is used to cut corners and lower budgets so the profit margins can be pushed even higher. - ThreadSky

jeroendegarn.bsky.social • 31 days ago

So many people defending capitalism in the replies.
Acting like RT is some godsend to make gamedev easier.
When in actuality it is used to cut corners and lower budgets so the profit margins can be pushed even higher.

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chrismahoney.bsky.social•31 days ago

Ray tracing allows for things that are otherwise not possible

abigator.bsky.social•31 days ago

thats not what ray tracing is and does. RT also is benefitial to you btw. if you want games to not become a TB big at some point.

jeroendegarn.bsky.social•31 days ago

We could also not be so focussed on graphical fidelity.
Scale it all back a bit and make devs lives easier as a whole.
And RT can help with that.
But not if the devs are then forced to work overtime on other superfluous graphical details that will only serve as a marketing bulletpoint.

chrisfratz.bsky.social•31 days ago

I mean, if games weren't focused on graphics, then we wouldn't have Quake, or Doom 3.

jeroendegarn.bsky.social•31 days ago

I'd say most games that were seen as graphical showcases when they releases haven't aged all that well.
Graphical fidelity will always be a waning quality.
It's a never ending race with no finish.
A bottomless hole to pour money into.

chrisfratz.bsky.social•31 days ago

At the same time though, I don't think A lot of innovations in real-time rendering wouldn't have happened without developers trying to push graphics ahead. We're at a point of diminishing returns now, sure, but we're at an age where we're refining tech to make what we can do now even better.

jeroendegarn.bsky.social•31 days ago

I think that's fair.

The problem lies with how the cost of all this is passed onto the average joe.
How publisher use all these advancements to cut costs and jobs.
While pocketing more money.

I love this tech for devs.

But i don't like how it empowers those in charge to take even more.

goldfishgroup.bsky.social•31 days ago

Or Doom 1, people forget that had mind-blowing graphics for 1993.

abigator.bsky.social•31 days ago

believe it or not. some devs want there games to push graphical boundries.

domesticalyx.bsky.social•31 days ago

hey man if you wanna compile your map every time you wanna look at how the lighting you just placed or adjusted looks be my guest but I think most environmental artists would rather not do that 👍

jeroendegarn.bsky.social•31 days ago

I'm not saying it's wrong to use RT.
Or that RT as a whole is bad.
I'm just saying that with the dire focus on fidelity the AAA industry has, RT just ads to the cost on the consumer end.
I'm sure it's great to work with, but when it makes games run like shit the endproduct is worse.

tosmatosoup.bsky.social•31 days ago

hey man, good engines will have a real time raytraced view in editor so you dont have to compile to check

literallydracula.bsky.social•31 days ago

Sorse 2

domesticalyx.bsky.social•31 days ago

exactly.

anarchistketsi.bsky.social•31 days ago

And that's definitely a pro for raytracing, all for making life easier for the devs.

But could at least give the consumer the courtesy of not using raytracing as an excuse to raise prices then, and that's his argument so nothing you said responds to his argument.

You both are correct.

hikugo.bsky.social•31 days ago

Prices are not set by the devs, its set by the publishers. So are dev timelines that the studio has to adhear to.

anarchistketsi.bsky.social•31 days ago

Did I say prices are set by the devs?

I said raytracing is used by whomever sets prices as a gimmick to increase prices, and disagreed with the practices, with consumers as target.

If they didn't use raytracing as a marketing strategy and used it as a tool to make devs lives easier, that A-Okay

zenotox.bsky.social•31 days ago

Can’t two things be true?

spookyender.bsky.social•31 days ago

Ehm no. Enviro artist here : Baking light is hell and RT is good actually. What it's not admissible is to force it in every game when it requires hardware that's still fairly new

Most devs have been dreaming about having RT for years, it makes our life easier and looks incredible

jeroendegarn.bsky.social•31 days ago

I'm not slighting RT as a whole to be clear.
It's the forced adoption due to increasing workloads and bloated projects that's my problem.
It's all fueled by this enforced desire for higher graphical fidelity.
A thing games don't need, but is forced upon us by suits who only see profit.

micbi.bsky.social•31 days ago

Maybe you should first inform yourself about what you are talking about, uh?
You are copy-pasting the most "stock" of excuses there is, somehow in that one case where it's not even random handwaved gossip but just technically wrong.
Not having to bake lightmaps is literally the opposite of bloating.

jeroendegarn.bsky.social•31 days ago

I literally say it lowers bloat and workload.
And i do get why devs like it and use it.
The problem is that it only heightens the industry's focus on graphical fidelity.
And as a result forces people to upgrade their hardware to accomodate ultimately arbitrary requirements.

crediblehulk.bsky.social•31 days ago

But is it really? RT has been around since the 2000 series which came out almost 8 years ago now.

spookyender.bsky.social•31 days ago

In a vacuum your premise makes sense, but GPUs have been crazy expensive for a decade now. A 4070 which supposedly is a consumer grade GPU, is still 500 € 3 years after launch

Also older hardware still works perfectly fine with non RT games and software, so most people don't have a need to upgrade

crediblehulk.bsky.social•31 days ago

lol, man you should have been around 30 years ago when 2mb of ram was $400

spookyender.bsky.social•31 days ago

I was around 30 years ago. I also remember that by then my parents could afford to buy a pc that ran the latest games perfectly fine as a christmas gift for me and my brother and today they wouldn't be

crediblehulk.bsky.social•31 days ago

The reason I bring up the RAM is because the game I purchased back then required 4mb of ram and I only had 2mb of ram. So I either didn’t play the game or spend $400 to upgrade.

The exact same thing is valid in today’s GPU market. The only way things move forward is move with the flow.

sharkcheese.bsky.social•31 days ago

So it's cool to require level designers sit around and do nothing while an expensive, cloud-based compute cluster bakes the lighting after every change they make? As opposed to changes being instant, on a commodity desktop PC?

sharkcheese.bsky.social•31 days ago

It sucks that technological progress in society is so deeply intertwined with capitalist systems, but that in turn doesn't mean anyone defending specific technological improvements is strongly pro-capitalist.

jeroendegarn.bsky.social•31 days ago

I'm mostly referring to the 'just buy a better pc" people.
A deeply capitalist response.
Games don't need raytracing or open worlds or 4k resolution.
Development bloat due to a focus on graphical quality has led to the need for RT in dev pipelines to keep projects managable.
That's a problem.

micbi.bsky.social•31 days ago

It's certainly unfortunate that today's integrated graphics has created a no-man-land of decent gpus, whereas the first actually remotely worthy any money is the rtx3050 6GB at 180€. But that can get you already 60fps in 1080p?

And "games don't need open world" is stupid, it's a game design choice.

hikugo.bsky.social•31 days ago

Nobody is defending capitalism. There are just people here who are PC gamers since forever, and been through this with new shader models, DX versions etc.

Yes, at some points you will be forced to upgrade. And its also true that the world is a shit fucking financial place rn.

jeroendegarn.bsky.social•31 days ago

Having to upgrade is a market enforced decision.
The focus on graphical quality over all else has led to this need to continuously upgrade.
RT is just a symptom of that singular focus.
It's nice too have for devs, but the need for it also exposes a flaw in the industry.

hikugo.bsky.social•31 days ago

Which is technical progress. Like...man. Stuff like this happens, so artists can create cooler things. FFVII Rebirth only exists because Square used Shader Model 6.5.

Your comment essentially says that we should have stayed on the level of Super Mario Brothers which is...an oppinion but...come on.

jeroendegarn.bsky.social•31 days ago

Technical progress can be good.
But not if it is used as an excuse to cram in more stuff.
That's the logic that gen-ai proponents use to justify mass theft.
Progress needs to serve a goal, and by itself RT does that.
But in practice it is used as a way to just make more for less.

hikugo.bsky.social•31 days ago

Is more for less a bad thing when at the end of it you get something so sprawling and flavourful as FFVII:R? Or Doom? Or Indy?

And btw. AI takes away peoples opportunities to be creative. RT makes sure, that the devs have time to work on creative things instead of putting down lightmaps for months.

hikugo.bsky.social•31 days ago

It's a tool like any other. You can do it badly and you can do it well. But expecting devs to use 2 solutions forever is not a realistic expectation.

Again having to buy new hardware sucks ass especially now. I just went through it and my PC still suffering for it. But...thats how PC gaming is man.

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