Ok … so I did an attempt at rabbit holing to find actual evidence of ancient stim toys (worry stones, worry beads, etc …) One of my parents told me about them decades ago but I can’t find any evidence beyond blurbs by ppl selling them so does anyone have legit articles about *real* ancient ones? - ThreadSky

autismsupsoc.bsky.social • 57 days ago

Ok … so I did an attempt at rabbit holing to find actual evidence of ancient stim toys (worry stones, worry beads, etc …)

One of my parents told me about them decades ago but I can’t find any evidence beyond blurbs by ppl selling them so

does anyone have legit articles about *real* ancient ones?

Comments

herissonrose.bsky.social•57 days ago

What is a drop spindle, but a fidget toy?

(Before machines or spinning wheels, you would every spare moment, whirr a drop spindle like a yo-yo with your free hand to turn wool into thread).

Making clothes was extremely time consuming.

Weaving + knitting are pretty fidget-friendly activities too..

herissonrose.bsky.social•57 days ago

My grandma loved knitting. LOVED IT. Would pull apart old jumpers, just to knit them again. Knitting made her so calm and happy. She would take her bag everywhere and get fidgety and distressed without it.

She was never diagnosed with anything, but given her descendants i'm pretty sure 😉

candidwoods.bsky.social•57 days ago

I mean, it's not thought of this way, but the rosary absolutely can be One, and Also appeals to OCD as well.

zigi-now9.bsky.social•57 days ago

Brings to my mind the prayer beads used by Tendai and Shingon Buddhist monks, which make a nice sound when rubbed together, and doing so is said to have a spiritually purifying effect.

zigi-now9.bsky.social•57 days ago

Of course again, it's more of a religious practice, than a purely sensory one.

zigi-now9.bsky.social•57 days ago

Continuing from that, people in the past often thought of the supernatural as not as separate from the natural as many of us today.
Whether rubbing the beads together calmed the user's mind for sensory or for spiritual reasons, to them it probably didn't occur to even make a distinction.

marcuscannon.bsky.social•57 days ago

I don’t recall coming across anything talking about fidget toys, or even the concept of, in antiquity. However, I would think they are either misclassifed (as with fertility char…er…dildos) or were dual purpose. Moneys on the latter as it would be really hard to id ASD and tie it to a toy.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

Exactly.

I have seen multiple references to “worry stones” and “worry beads” used for anxiety but all references are from people selling them as “ancient wisdom” … someone did bring up Baoding balls which have been in use for centuries … and references to walnuts used before the balls.

marcuscannon.bsky.social•57 days ago

Ooh, you raise a really good point. I’m speculating, but I’d hypothesize that most devices of this type were likely made from waste - bone, wood scraps, nut shells - since it *probably* wasn’t something one would invest useful resources in. Many would not have survived the passage of time.

marcuscannon.bsky.social•57 days ago

Putting a 📌 in this as a reminder to come back. I’m starting to recall some things about toys in children’s graves and graves generally, and want to pull some papers tomorrow. If there was anything like this in antiquity, gravesites would likely be the best place to find them.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

I do recall something about a collection found in a child’s grave … like a collection of bones?

shamanblackbear.bsky.social•57 days ago

First thought (while listening to music, horns and so) is ancestral dzi beads.

Many are replicas, esp for tourist dollars but the idea is sound.
(heh, pun?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzi_bead

shamanblackbear.bsky.social•57 days ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5U0dfprrDA

hutchymon.bsky.social•57 days ago

I have a feeling this is one for well-to-do Romans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron?wprov=sfla1

gayknaves.bsky.social•57 days ago

I thought they found out that was a loom for knitting glove fingers or something. ChertineP on youtube 3d printed and did a demonstration

marcuscannon.bsky.social•57 days ago

Yep. It’s a tool used for knitting.

sorenable.bsky.social•56 days ago

If I had to guess, a lot of what people used to stim with (their clothing, vegetation, rocks/stones, produce, sticks, etc.) might have decomposed or been absorbed by nature? Stimming with everyday objects around you is so commonplace, to me, it just makes sense.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

Yes. many aspects of life going back sentries does not easily survive and yet we are able to reconstruct the past in numerous way.

There are numerous refernecs to ppl in China doing hand exercises with Walnuts for over 1000 years.

I am seeking more details on this and similar legitimate account.

sorenable.bsky.social•56 days ago

Very cool! I did not know this factoid. If I run into another example, I’ll be sure to share.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

Since writing you that skeet I found a paper that mention that the practice of WenWan Walnuts goes back over 2000 years.

I am assuming there must be similar verification for “worry beads” and “worry stones”

I am looking for details not being propagated by people who *sell* them though.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

Also what appears to be reliable documents claims that the WenWan Walnuts were used in meditation and described by some as “sensory toys”

So very excited to find those details!

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

And thank you but I am not looking for the oft repeated comment about all the different culture’s that “used ‘worry stones’” … I am looking for something with more subjstsnce than that, thabk you!

https://bsky.app/profile/autismsupsoc.bsky.social/post/3lemsbdf2h22y

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

For those saying “rosary” I know that a rosary can be a stim toy for some,

I am not interested in claiming that Catholic religious artifact and practice since circa 1500s is a stim toy *instead* of an an act of faith.

Thank you!

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

The closest thing I have found to what I am looking for are references to a Chinese tradition (documented back at least 1000 years?) of manipulating a pair of walnuts.

https://bsky.app/profile/autismsupsoc.bsky.social/post/3lemsbdf2h22y

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

Ah … here is a paper which confirms that Wenwan Walnuts have been part of Chinese culture for over 2000 years.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

I appreciate the ppl directing me to the existence of Worry beads/ komboloi/kompoloi

I am looking for a *reliable* *source* saying how long Worry beads/ komboloi/kompoloi have been in use as a stim toy (and not a prayer beads)

For instant WenWan Walnuts are confirmed to be 2000+ years.

Thank you

mistresscaution.bsky.social•57 days ago

Ohhhh this makes me wanna go down the faith and religiosity interaction with autism rabbithole!!!!

darkwaterphotos.bsky.social•57 days ago

Did you read about Greek Komboloi history? I'm always looking up more and more info. My komboloi are my daily companions.

https://www.kombologadiko.gr/historyen.html

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

Thank you … this does have enough facts that I can hopefully track some reliable data down and verify but I will point out they it’s a website for *selling* Komboloi today.

I am looking for sources that aren’t commercially capitalizing on the modern iterations.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

This site you have directed me to is the best I have seen so far!

And has actual language elements and historical details beyond “they existed”

Thank you!

darkwaterphotos.bsky.social•57 days ago

There is ONE book ... but I'm hesitant to buy it, without a through look at the contents. It's on Amazon as well. Seems stupidly priced. If it was at $15 - $25 I might bite.

The Komboloi and Its History
by Aris Evangelinos

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

Oooh!

darkwaterphotos.bsky.social•57 days ago

I've read a lot, most of what I could find on them. I still feel there are large gaps. There was an entire rebetika (music) movement in Greece, and also underworld connections as well.

I'm still not satiated - if I only had language access to those cultures *sigh*.

darkwaterphotos.bsky.social•57 days ago

I'd like to think that if I knew the languages of the places where they were used, that I might discover more about them, alas I've no background in Hindi, Greek, Turkish, or even Tibetan languages.

darkwaterphotos.bsky.social•57 days ago

I also build my own sets. This is a rudimentary heavy set I made a few days back.

ispecter.bsky.social•57 days ago

I don't have ancient ones, but I have a worry stone that passed from my great-great grandfather, to my grandfather, to me. So I have one-off anecdotal evidence of the existence of one in the late 1800's.

witchboy-lael.bsky.social•57 days ago

Try looking for articles on manuports in geology/archeology. Though, it goes back eons... still, it might fit the concept.

mcoyslefthand.bsky.social•57 days ago

question made me think. How would a worry stone look?
If you were in nature?
Lot of potential stim toys?
No?

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

There are many claims about the naturally occurring “worry stones”

I am looking for a something Akin to “here is a photo of a worrystone from a [ancient year]”

Instead of claims by people selling them that they were used in ancient time

mcoyslefthand.bsky.social•57 days ago

but what characteristics would a real worry stone have? Smooth? Right size? Would worry show erosion in the stone differently than water or wind?

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

Yes.

mcoyslefthand.bsky.social•57 days ago

thx but begs the question? : )

mcoyslefthand.bsky.social•57 days ago

great opportunity to use the idiom ‘begs the question’
Very rare opportunity can’t remember the last time I got to say ‘begs the question’

mcoyslefthand.bsky.social•57 days ago

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

zigi-now9.bsky.social•57 days ago

Since a lot of everyday objects can be used as stim toys, I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case in antiquity.

herrnethar6.bsky.social•57 days ago

I'll betcha that for the thousands of years that prayer beads have existed in one form or another, neurodivergent people have used them to stim.

Not sure people actually intentionally made them for that purpose

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

The people who sell “worry beads” have claims that they were used in Ancient Greece prior to rosaries and the like for dealing with anxiety but I could only find references to “Ancient Greek worry beads” on these types of sites.

It’s credible but I am looking for actual sources not selling them.

chaotickestrel.bsky.social•57 days ago

Have you looked into baoding balls? I remember reading somewhere that they were a "cure for troublesome hands" or something like that. They qualify as ancient but I'm not sure I'd they're in the right vein of what you're looking for.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

Oh thank you! This is an excellent example of what I was looking for! Confirmed reports of a stimmy acticity going back like a thousand years.

herrnethar6.bsky.social•57 days ago

I've seen "prayer bead" artefacts in a neolythic exibit ones. I think the find dated back as much as 10k years. They have existed for a long time, what their actual uses were is largly up to interpretation by archiologists/anthopologists.

gufoblue.bsky.social•56 days ago

Something like this?

https://www.komboloi.gr/indexe.php?cat=3

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

The Komboloi Museum is privately owned by a married couple that sells Komboloi.

Thank you but no this does not meet my request for:

- historical evidence of the use of Komboloi (or other stim toy) *not* directly sourced by an entity *selling* them. -

Thank you though.

gufoblue.bsky.social•56 days ago

I'd infer that you are searching if this "thing" is real and storical or just a myth with business interest
Searching Google Scholar with "worry beads" got me:
https://books.google.it/books?id=xiJQo87XAhEC&lpg=PP13&ots=vVYCnAHHQA&dq=greek%20worry%20beads&lr&pg=PP7#v=onepage&q=beads&f=false

and:
https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/73898189/473abdd7c358b804865f40e816188ca4a5c9-libre.pdf?1635626462=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DAnthropology_of_policy_Critical_perspect.pdf&Expires=1735758474&Signature=aWnHKV4tJHufS5owyDspaelu-fW3uvlMKng3si7xnwaWlP44BqCcIkJvBfr~~3GSReqPIJZ0D189mEfpcZ~jEEbzCMpgWwnbxbd3UJ7DEz3qLhPK6Igtq~ThccPXOwQvWXpGOxeRDsXxQ2MUsAWLtBSdzbirazUHfgvXmSMH~Fyy2O5qoReIvXtLK~NpYxPYyA9-qRSUBN~Z5RAt-rkqVtA6iT6e71A4VCzZWCHxtfhndeW1AmYUzB6yne9kkBODks1jd70-n5wFXvnDvKdY4-WLwoIH1IhIRpl07IkXX2W4kZtvq2eGO1uVJKdKOuBfUIbIg6s2qSfaabmXZIns2g__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

and finally:
https://pontosworld.com/index.php/pontus/customs-folklore/252-christian-greek-funeral-rituals-in-pontos-2

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

You are correct that I am looking for verifiable historical context that is interpreted through the lens of modern business interests.

The links are hard for me to follow. The book on “pagan prayer beads” is factually interesting to me but those are *religious* items.

https://bsky.app/profile/autismsupsoc.bsky.social/post/3lemzf2csu22y

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

“Worry stones” are stones that a person manipulates to navigate being overwhelm as are “worry beads” as the name of both imply.

*prayer* artifacts are items of *prayer*

The best I have found is this paper that confirms that WenWan Walnuts have been in use for 2000+ years
https://bsky.app/profile/autismsupsoc.bsky.social/post/3leovgd35ok2u

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

Thank you for your efforts.

ewile.bsky.social•57 days ago

According to this article, the Kombolói Museum in Athens has examples of ancient worry beads. The museum website is of course in Greek.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/flk.2004.43.1.89

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

Thank you.

I have previously found the privately owned “museum” run by a married couple that sells them.

I am looking for a resource that isn’t a store.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

All the details I have found talking about the long history of worry stones and worry beads is *also* selling them … which is … weird to not be able to find a non-salesperson talking about an “ancient practice”

ewile.bsky.social•57 days ago

Scholar.Google is usually good for coming up with actual research papers. Would think there would be some reputable archeologist or historian articles. But, yes, very little comes up.

rlam.bsky.social•57 days ago

I wonder about paper folding crafts. I used paper folding to stim most of my life before knowing that was what it was called

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•57 days ago

Origami is so soothing and awesome

tomdharwood.bsky.social•56 days ago

Surely any beads count. We all play with beads. First bead factory 36,000 years ago in France from memory.. book Secrets of the Stone Age c2000..from memory!

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

I don’t know why you would make the claim that every modern application of bead is primary intended as a “stim toy” so I don’t know how you would say this is the primarily intention of all beads throughout the history of beads.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

Put another way.

If all beads are “worry beads” then why would people call worry beads “worry beads” instead of “beads”

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

Or another interpretation is that I could say I am looking for legitimate information on the oldest known quern stones and you respond with “any rock” is a quern stone.

I am looking for additional details on what is already claimed to be real and existent things.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•56 days ago

While I appreciate your point that literally any physical object can be used In physical stimming this isn’t what I am seeking details on just ask asking about hammer stones isn’t a request for rocks in general.

Thank you though.

https://bsky.app/profile/tomdharwood.bsky.social/post/3leosjw6kck25

tomdharwood.bsky.social•55 days ago

Yup. It's what you do with the beads once you make them! But the potential has been there for 36,000 years.

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•54 days ago

Your estimate is off by over 100,000 years.

Regardless I found an answer to my question which is that WenWan walnuts have been around for at least 2000 years.

Thank you though
https://leakeyfoundation.org/archaeologists-find-the-oldest-known-shell-beads/

tomdharwood.bsky.social•54 days ago

Wow!

tomdharwood.bsky.social•55 days ago

Well, I have one legitimate reference for a bead factory, and for me, the tactile aspect of beads is a primary positive benefit of beads. I would think that any ancient "we don't know what this was but it might be ancient fidget spinner" theories are probably less reliable than my lived experience.

tomdharwood.bsky.social•55 days ago

But sorry if I wasn't helpful, which I was trying to be. Certainly not trying claim anything about modern beads. Having had severe brain damage a few years ago, though, I can assure you that the natural environment with leaves, stones, swirling eddies and wind in the trees is a source of Zen calming

tomdharwood.bsky.social•55 days ago

So likely earlier peoples had less need for purpose built toys. Shaping a piece of wood, to any old form is always a joy 😀

autismsupsoc.bsky.social•54 days ago

The question is asking for explicit example of non-religious stim toys prior to the modern era so as to know when people culturally embraced the existence of such.

Your speculations are interesting but unrelated to the topic.

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