For example, European companies and governments depending on US tech companies’ services could become a liability: it’s not hard to imagine the Trump administration exploiting the fact that much of the modern world wouldn’t function without cloud services and software provided by US companies. - ThreadSky

martin.kleppmann.com • 2 days ago

For example, European companies and governments depending on US tech companies’ services could become a liability: it’s not hard to imagine the Trump administration exploiting the fact that much of the modern world wouldn’t function without cloud services and software provided by US companies.

Comments

yonz.bsky.social•11 hours ago

TikTok was no longer in the play store in Ethiopia after it was banned in the US. I was already surprised to see it banned in the US but it shocked me to know that rules may apply to the app store listings in different countries too

martin.kleppmann.com•5 hours ago

Wow, that’s surprising. I wouldn’t have expected it to have any effect on other countries.

martin.kleppmann.com•2 days ago

Self-sufficiency can certainly be taken too far, and it would be inefficient for every country to try to build its own sovereign tech stack. But I do wonder how the new geopolitical reality may shape technology choices. Maybe local-first has a role to play in de-risking the use of US cloud services?

pennyflynn.bsky.social•2 days ago

Are you saying they have us by the short and curlies and we should bow to fascism just so we can watch cat videos?

spam-meharderpapa.bsky.social•2 days ago

Wow, your write-up is somehow worse than what AI could do

thobgubnol.bsky.social•2 days ago

Mayhap you want to ditch the American exceptionalism that many of you have as the rest of the world are just as capable; just their talents were drowned out by American corporations who preferred American made to locally made.

ignorantme.bsky.social•2 days ago

The EU has to stop believing in American exceptionalism themselves and drop their neo-liberal policies.

thobgubnol.bsky.social•2 days ago

May I inquire what you mean by Neo-liberal?

ignorantme.bsky.social•2 days ago

Absolutely. Reagan and Thatcher versions of capitalism which is marked by limiting regulation, austerity and corporate socialism.
Incentivizing massive, heartless corporations at the expense of everyday citizens.
Politics influenced by monied interests.

thobgubnol.bsky.social•2 days ago

Thank you. 😊

iangrant25.bsky.social•2 days ago

See Lindner's negotiating points that destroyed Germany's Ampel coalition. Thank the voters' good sense the FDP was kicked out of parliament.

iangrant25.bsky.social•2 days ago

https://apnews.com/article/germany-scholz-government-struggling-economy-coalition-lindner-1cae2cd0266453103fc89800e47e7ce7

greatscot4.bsky.social•1 day ago

If Trump yanks everything like he's threatened to do, we'll have to find alternatives anyway. There is no point in sitting still and hoping he doesn't. He does not honor any trade deals, including the ones HE made the last time.

icooper.bsky.social•2 days ago

When we think about vendor lock-in, the usual question is: How likely is it that we might have to move? How painful would it be? That the equation has shifted to more likely. We probably need to focus on cloud-native OSS over cloud-provider services to reduce the impact of switching in response

v-meccanico.bsky.social•2 days ago

It would be almost unimaginably painful and would take several years, at best.
We do not have the physical infrastructure (i.e. data centers), let alone the time to manage such a formidable migration, under pressure from an ultimatum.
Such an ultimatum would be equivalent to an act of war.
1/2

v-meccanico.bsky.social•2 days ago

Moreover, such an ultimatum would probably come with export restrictions, preventing EU companies from buying compute, storange and network equipment from US suppliers.

What would we do then? Go knocking at China's door?
It would be an absolulte disaster.

2/2

janedoe--official.bsky.social•2 days ago

Not necessarily a mandate but many customer review decisions could query US exposure. Expect many corps to have a soft boycott USA where feasible policy

v-meccanico.bsky.social•2 days ago

True. More than a boycott, risk management.
At least for new infrastructure, I bet people are, at the very least, already considering in-house datacenters over cloud providers.

alanlawlor.bsky.social•2 days ago

We DO have the physical infrastructure. If Microsoft, AWS, Oracle, etc ceased serving European customers tomorrow, there would be a huge amount of (now redundant) data centre capacity that they would be selling off at fire-sale prices

alanlawlor.bsky.social•2 days ago

Very few European companies use US data centres (GDPR concerns) so all of the compute/storage and networking requirements are served locally at locations across Europe

v-meccanico.bsky.social•2 days ago

The fact that you have your data physically located in EU means very little: suppose an executive order forbids, say, AWS, from providing services to any entity related to Denmark.

What are you going to do?
Send the army?
Kick down doors and confiscate data centers?

1/2

vivainio.bsky.social•2 days ago

Kubernetes is probably the key to self-sufficient cloud

staltz.com•2 days ago

I think Europe and US are too coupled together in both directions for that to effectively happen. E.g. even tech giants have key offices and workforce in Europe

marcelius3078.bsky.social•2 days ago

Absolutely. And that's why they risk getting kicked out. https://datacenters.google/locations/

poopooturnip.bsky.social•2 days ago

Honestly most the important stuff is open source. There's a lot of cruft on top of that but they can do local infrastructure

neuroparis.bsky.social•2 days ago

Self-sufficiency at the regional scale is not the same as at a country scale.

This effort must be made at the EU or sub-EU scale.

It will become a powerful way to bring Europe together with a common project.

(PS There's a good chance that we are heading towards a regionalisation of the Web)

jmkorhonen.fi•1 day ago

I agree that we shouldn’t rush to break things that may be salvageable, but I’m afraid trust isn’t one of them. USA showed already in 2016 that its word can be trusted only four years at a time at most. This is just the confirmation that it wasn’t a fluke, like many hoped.

jmkorhonen.fi•1 day ago

There is no way to make effective security or defense policy if a major ally can become indifferent or even hostile every four years.

Europe should really have woken up in 2016, or at least done much more after 2022. But here we are.

We just can’t keep hoping for status quo ante Trump to return.

vimanasv.bsky.social•2 days ago

I can see huge opportunity and potential for a vast new, confident European Renaissance coming from this. Social, cultural, tech, the whole shebang.

smuuchii.bsky.social•2 days ago

EU countries, in particular, benefit so greatly from their union that EU-centric would, on its own, be a reasonable compromise between hyper-local and fully global

spotlightondoge.bsky.social•2 days ago

Elon hacked Twitter to help Trump win. He also sends over 100+ messages per day 24 x 7 and wants to influence your country too. That is the core problem
https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/14/23600358/elon-musk-tweets-algorithm-changes-twitter

amestms.bsky.social•2 days ago

Widen Horizons. Most of the tech used for social media, which is fracturing the fabric of all societies is owned by a few. With Open Platforms, it is easy. With guardrails, even easier.
A warning: Oligarchs love to divide us because we focus on US vs their stealing.
Hope: many are realizing that

spotlightondoge.bsky.social•2 days ago

Yes I believe under all the chaos the core problem is allowing a once excellent global platform for communication fall into the hands of a US based megalomaniac oligarch

amestms.bsky.social•2 days ago

It was not always that way, but the saying is true, Power Corrupts and Absolute Power corrupts ABSOLUTLY.
Twist on words, but.....

johntells.bsky.social•2 days ago

I'd avoid calling it hacking as he owns it and can do whatever bullshit algorithm he wants.

It's a form of social manipulation. He's feeding misinformation with the purpose of brainwashing those who continue to worship him.

That's why he wanted twitter. To manipulate you for his own gain.

johntells.bsky.social•2 days ago

I went on a tangent but basically it's not hacking. The same applies to the DOGE boys, they didn't need to hack as they were given straight up access.

spotlightondoge.bsky.social•2 days ago

Agreed but the risk is that they have our data and some are known past hackers so besides the risk of what they will do with it all, they may start thinking about how valuable it would be to take and market it to the highest bidder

johntells.bsky.social•2 days ago

That is true. They cannot at all be trusted.

invalid-handle.com•2 days ago

It feels like a process similar to that which began some years ago with China will now begin with the US.

Not completely decoupling but more working with other partners, derisking in critical areas…

Does that make sense?

denisedewald.bsky.social•2 days ago

Unless there is a decisive change in leadership *AND* prosecution of the criminals that have taken hold of the US government, Europe should consider the US as an adversary like Russia.

1234mimijones.bsky.social•1 day ago

When it comes to the Comparable’s of Jus’What USA exports TO Europe, in ratio to What USA Imports FROM Europe

SomePeople need tht info in Graph!
👉🏼How WeBenefit FromEurope VS How EuropeBenefits FromUSA’s Called TRADE!
👉🏼Negotiations Are Paramount!
👁️👁️Threats&Bullying AreNot Welcomed! 🤜🏼💙🤛🏼

leaderwhisperer.bsky.social•2 days ago

Agreed, but more tech companies are starting in Europe that will provide credible alternatives, @martin.kleppmann.com

France, in particular, is making massive investments in this arena.

And I genuinely think we'll see an exodus of tech companies from the US to Europe in the next 3-9 months

ageh1.bsky.social•2 days ago

What are u contemplating. Europe has to cut ties to this regime. It's all bloatware. Look to China. Everything can be substituted. US wants the world to change. They become isolationists.
The risk has to be taken. Otherwise we will be strangled by submission.

neuroparis.bsky.social•2 days ago

It's easy to see that he will not hesitate to extort towards his own ends.

Conclusion?

This is a unique opportunity for Europe to:

Borrow money to invest (not for consumption)

Rebuild-to-scale its Defense Industries (includes data centers) and compete with US

Create jobs + spinoff products

kodekabuki.bsky.social•2 days ago

That problem is mostly solved? China requires all foreign cloud providers to work with a local partner who actually owns and operates the infrastructure while the cloud provider like AWS supplies the software. So AWS can't just turn off/sabotage their China regions even if Trump admin demands it.

kmikazu.be•2 days ago

Europeans are getting all into open-source and shop locally. Data sovereignty is high on my lists and the past weeks I already dumped all American big-tech where possible. And more to come.

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