Cicero’s De officiis seems to support Vance’s view—our beneficence should weaken as our relationship with the beneficiary is more distant—but Cicero also insists on two points that Vance ignores. 1/ - ThreadSky

sophisteuein.bsky.social • 18 days ago

Cicero’s De officiis seems to support Vance’s view—our beneficence should weaken as our relationship with the beneficiary is more distant—but Cicero also insists on two points that Vance ignores. 1/

Reposted from Greg Sargent

JD Vance says our obligations radiate out in concentric circles, from family to nation and only then to the world, justifying Trump's immigration policies. I say that argument's a sham. Cosmopolitan liberalism offers a much more defensible map of our obligations:
newrepublic.com/article/1914...

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sophisteuein.bsky.social•18 days ago

First, beneficence must also take account of need, and favor gifts to the needy. And, second, no action is beneficent if it is not also just, and justice requires seeking to prevent wrongs, as much as one can. These, and especially the second, have cosmopolitan scope. 2/

sophisteuein.bsky.social•18 days ago

You don’t get to pretend you’re just while you are exploiting or ignoring the exploitation of human beings anywhere. And you don’t get to pretend you’re virtuous if you’re not just. 3/

sophisteuein.bsky.social•18 days ago

I appreciate the appeal to traditional wisdom in Vance’s claim—it’s a lot better than a naked appeal to greed or racism—but if one wants to claim wisdom, one should not be pulling lines in isolation to give cover to one’s greed and racism. 4/4

skip1515.bsky.social•18 days ago

While agreeing w/your thread I'm not sure Vance's appeal to traditinal wisdom is better than a naked appeal to greed/racism. His appeal's deceptive in an attempt to seduce those who'd otherwise disagree. At least the naked appeal route is honest about what it is and can be judged on its merits (sic)

sophisteuein.bsky.social•18 days ago

That’s a good point. But the appeal to wisdom—even if purely lip-service—offers the chance to connect the lip-service’s implicit aspirations to some higher aspirations. Not for Vance, as he’s probably corrupt beyond repair, but maybe for someone else who might be tempted by what Vance has said.

skip1515.bsky.social•17 days ago

Perhaps. But then perhaps you give the general public more credit than me for going beyond the surface of what someone like Vance says. Me, I regret to say that's not what I think happens most often.

ewigeliberal.bsky.social•18 days ago

[...] {Vance's} "appeal to traditional wisdom" --source is an (untrustworthy anglo man) and anti intellectual shit heel.

twotenths.bsky.social•14 days ago

I'd say it's not a better appeal in the sense that it is a disingenuous one, in this instance.

sophisteuein.bsky.social•14 days ago

Fair. But even disingenuous appeals to wisdom show some measure of respect to it. Vance might be beyond hope, but perhaps some readers who like his appeals to wisdom are open to a wider appeal.

twotenths.bsky.social•13 days ago

Interesting take - thank you.
I just take him to be a very clever weasel. Seems to be how he imagines himself, as well, considering his defense of his outrageous lies about Haitian immigrants in his home state.

jim0novak.bsky.social•18 days ago

So,

1. Vance is partly correct that Western philosophy has much to teach people today about morals,

And,

2. Western philosophy demonstrates that Vance has more to learn about morals than most people.

zachbonner.bsky.social•18 days ago

Cicero's schema is all fine and good, the question of the importance of proximity to the center of cosmos is prevalent in pre-modern philosophy and cosmology. But how and by whom will the discernment take place. Whose judgment says what group or interest lies where in the circles of concern? 1/2

sophisteuein.bsky.social•18 days ago

Cicero’s view is not that there is one center but that each of us is the center of own set of concentric circles. He doesn’t think that our circles are or should be whatever we happen to think, but he also doesn’t think that our conception of them should be imposed on us by some external authority.

zachbonner.bsky.social•18 days ago

No thanks to it being J.D. Vance's. He's produced more versions of himself than than Apple has the iphone since 2016. The idea he close to the center of anything other than the venal use of naked power is ridiculous.

umeuseumaeus.bsky.social•18 days ago

Tempora and mores come to mind

pthibodeau.bsky.social•14 days ago

Shouldn't the point be that Cicero was not a Christian theologian?

sophisteuein.bsky.social•14 days ago

There are many points one could make. Not sure what *the* point should be.

gregsargent.bsky.social•18 days ago

Look what I found: https://bsky.app/profile/gregsargent.bsky.social/post/3li2yhwexkk2s

sophisteuein.bsky.social•18 days ago

Nussbaum was one of my dissertation advisors! I think I’m gloomier than she is about how cosmopolitan Cicero is, and fonder than she is about the earlier Greek Stoics’ take on these issues. But I’ve learned a lot from her.

gregsargent.bsky.social•18 days ago

I mention Cicero and the cosmopolitan tradition in the piece...it's more compatible with the schema that I lay out (and with Pope's reading of Good Samaritan parable). That's especially true given that in practice Trump/Vance are shrugging off obligations to rest of the world quasi-emtirely

sophisteuein.bsky.social•18 days ago

I’m with you. With a long book manuscript filled with receipts.

gregsargent.bsky.social•18 days ago

Hah thanks

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