Yep. Literally have been accused of this a lot and lost friends over it. I wish I wasn't this way and I'm trying to make the brain let go but it just CAN'T
As with everything there are layers of degrees, mine is often totally compulsive, I get no choice in what I'm saying and how long I pontificate. I do my best to tell people that it's ok to just interrupt me and tell me to stop but I can only go halfway.
This. I feel that a lot of it stems from the indirect communication of neurotypicals. They all talk and listen with deeper meanings/alternate meanings. They assign things to our words that we didn't communicate to them.
And assumptions! So many times I'm told "YOU know what I meant to say!" No, I bloody well didn't! I accepted that what you DID say is what you MEANT to say. I'm operating from that basis until I can get more detail or clarification of terms. And I struggle to say EXACTLY what I mean to.
Goes the other way too: This hits home. People always attach something to what I say that I didn’t say. Frustrates me to no end. Just take what I said at face value ffs.
I use "If you're going to make shit up instead of listening to my words, why bother talking to me at all? You can use your imagination without wasting my time." I used it in a work meeting one time and it significantly improved communication moving forward.
More seriously, the prime example of that for me is when people don't understand that an objection doesn't mean a refusal. I can express concern that a particular approach to solving a problem isn't the right way to go, that doesn't mean I can't follow an instruction to follow that solution.
I have been going nuts with strawman arguments hitting me in the face recently. I just call them out now. It seems like the new reality is people just making up strawmen to argue against, I don't think it's just NT people.
Indirect communication, man that is going to easily stick in my head next time my mom refuses to actually commit to a response. I'm not sure, maybe, perhaps, I remembered that some time ago, could be, hope so.
my take on it is something like, you don’t have to agree with me, but i want to be sure you understand my position. i’ve learned to shut up over the years
I get accused of this all the time, and I often have cognitive dissonance when I'm presented with something that is "assumed" by everybody else, and I have to ask for clarification to be sure I'm on the same page, which leads to me being accused of "trying to pick apart everything."
This is absolutely how my partner operates. I have ADHD and I try to be patient and understand where he's coming from, but it's hard because I am very imprecise/ "feelings"-driven. I know it drives him insane and for good reason 😅
How do you know it's the autism that's the cause of that aspect of your personality though? I'm not autistic, and this is the exact reason why I'm like a dog with a bone in these situations. And not all autistic people are argumentative. What's autism, and what's personality?
Just watched your videos and shared some of them with my 28 year old autistic son. He has trouble keeping à job because he doesn't like people making eye contact with him and react aggressively ..
who continue to lose jobs because of his aggressive behavior. Lately he is having trouble with
I hope he finds his place to shine! Has he ever looked into Costco? The stockers make Good money and don't have to deal with the crabby public. A highschool friend of my son's (30) just bought his first house doing this
It's ok to just close your eyes if someone looks you in the eye like this, I'm just now trying to unmask and start avoiding eye contact again, it's done nothing but hurt me trying to maintain it all these years. Makes people stop really quick lol.
Spent my whole life doing it, and everybody assumes I'm the most argumentative person, when in reality I just never truly feel understood most of the time.
It just feels like almost everything I say is taken the wrong way, leading me to explain it over and over, hoping to get through.
This led to actually arguments with family members, particularly my dad, who just never seemed to get what I was trying to say or never attempted to listen in the first place.
Also I can remember so many times when I've been mis quoted, even right in front of me to others, and that boils my blood!
So many comments of "You said this" or "he said that", whilst being totally inaccurate.
It seems that a lot of people hear what they want to, for good or bad, and whilst that's bad enough, to then pass that message on incorrectly to others makes me have to attempt explaining myself all over again.
Most people don’t take the time to understand or empathize with those around them and assume that anyone not on their wavelength is arguing or an asshole. It’s on them not you. Decent people take time to understand their fellow humans.
I’m really thinking I might be low-level autistic and never diagnosed because of all the insanity in my childhood. So much of what I’ve been trying to change or explain about myself makes sense in the context of autism spectrum. And as I see my ASD son become an adult I see myself in him a ton.
My kids are in their late 20s; I still have to explain that I talk while I am trying to understand things, I'm not being crazy--MY BRAIN WORKS DIFFERENTLY.
As theirs do--but we are seldom on the same plane.
I assume people have a rationale for what they say and do. The assumption is wrong. People make stuff up rather than admit not knowing. So when I keep probing for rationale they just get angry.
To everyone: if you don’t understand, just say so.
But then you are intruding on their performative reality by making them admit they don't know something that they have been pretending to know, maybe for years.
Most people don't know why they do things. Habit is formidable & influences everything. Some people have trouble with conceptual thought, separating emotion from cognition / interrogating they're own conduct, and being able to do it while being kind to themselves.
Your
- demand that folks respond in a certain way is controlling.
- demand that folks interrogate their world at all is invasive.
- arrogation of the role of ethical / moral judge is pretentious.
- condescension is insulting.
And *I* need to be certain that I'm not misunderstanding YOU, because what was said could have many meanings, and has assumptions underneath it that I'm not comfortable making without clarification. That's seen as "picking everything apart."
100%. And sometimes I can't find the words to express my feelings completely, so I keep going and going, throwing out more and more, because just speaking it will never be enough.
I don't know if I'm on the spectrum (although I do know that everyone thinks that I'm odd/weird/etc).
I can only answer for myself. If there's a possible issue with them understanding, then I ask them to explain to me what they think I mean. If they can do that, it can help to clear things. Even...
if they don't fully understand my point, if they make an effort to explain to me both what they think I mean and how that might differ from what they mean, it's helpfull.
Obviously this won't work with people I don't know well.
And TBH, I don't know many people well Bcoz most drive me nuts. 😣
This is the second lesson you have taught me. I'm an impatient jerk who gets annoyed with people who use 10 words for something I could in 3
TDIL I need to slow down and let others do what they need to for their own peace of mind. I need to be more mindful
They literally have the same compulsive need to act and perform and emote in the same way we have to explain things verbally but good fucking luck ever finding acceptance in this kind of thinking.
You want me to stand here and watch your performance and clap and approve when you are done? When then you can stand there for a bit while I try to get clarification verbally.
Generally I’ll be accused of putting words in someone’s mouth because I rephrase what they said the way I heard it. I’m trying to understand, that’s all.
I'm realizing that part of why I do this is because I grew up with people who just refused to believe me when I said something hurt. Then I got a nerve disorder diagnosis as an adult and they just shrugged it off.
Like they did when I was bullied for my "differences" that I now am realizing were always just my Autism. They never listened, and conditioned me to feel the need to MAKE EVERYONE HEAR ME now no matter how minor the point.
often ppl seem to interpret my need for things to be a particular way as me being self-superior. like, they think i am saying they aren't good enough. do you experience this? it's a dynamic that haunts me. and i absolutely do not think i'm superior, i just can't unclench my jaw without right angles😭
For non-autistic people who might encounter this, what would be the best way to ask and clarify that the 'argument' isn't an argument? So we can get on the same page and work to clarify things further, etc?
If you were dealing with me specifically I'd prefer you didn't seek clarification per se, but rather assume in advance that my question has validity even if you cannot see what it may be, but I appreciate that may be easier said than done if you have an instinctive feeling that you are under attack.
Agreed. While I haven't really run into this thus far, far as I'm aware anyways. I was just thinking of how a non-autistic can understand someone's trying to communicate until they feel they're understood fully. Since I'd imagine some non-autistic people, as the OG poster said, might misconstrue it.
This is it. Non-autistics must start understanding that while autistics may have very different perspectives, they are just as valid and deserve to be heard.
yeah learn that the hard way all thought k to 8th i got told not talk back or don't argum with me and think like that by teachers sigh i was so mad becuse of this
I can relate when I try to explain the state of our society, met back with blank stares of no knowledge of history or understanding of the present. It’s like trying to explain salmonella concerns handling raw chicken w/ people who have no idea what you’re talking about.
Yeah. I had some glaring issues with my parents a couple years back and needed to talk to them about it. They refused to understand my point of view, deflected, said that I've "changed" and become argumentative.
So, it never got resolved, and it's done some lasting damage to our relationship.
I didn't want to be "right" I didn't want to "argue." In fact even bringing it all up was so hard for me to do but it was really important. So, in this instance, they failed me as my parents and now I'm barely even able to talk to them. I guess they prefer it this way.
Would a good phrasing to use in this situation be something like "I understand where you're coming from but I feel you're incorrect in this, may I explain"?
As someone who has a 13 yr old granddaughter who is on the spectrum, it can be difficult at times when she insists she is correct about something that isn’t correct. It exceeded the normal teenager stance. I am not sure how to handle it. If anyone has a suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.
Well, here's what I found helpful with my son (19). First, what didn't work: making it about correction. Tried that, a lot. Both of us hated it.
So, what I try now is to frame issue in elements like, "How would we decide something is true" (assuming external issue). I try to get "Why I believe".
Use a whiteboard or pencil and paper and flowchart it if you need to. I love making lists so maybe she will like that but we are not very similar sometimes so who knows!
I'm not autistic* but I relate to argumentativeness & a need to be right.
But I don't need my initial position to be right. I argue to find/achieve rightness and am reluctant to quit before I get there.
*Although I sometimes feel I must be on a spectrum of some sort & my adult kids think it likely
To make things worse, because I'm coming at things from a different angle I can often spot problems they do not. This is an advantage to me professionally and it is a skilled that has been recognised by some, but a lot of the time I've been ignored,
I was just posting on this above. Experience tells me they may not have considered all the angles I have. If they hear me out & still disagree, I’ll accept it - especially if they tell me their reasons that *I* might not know.
We seem to be recruiting for a head of support in NW England or Manchester at the moment. We've a relatively small presence in the UK, they're mainly based in Australia.
While I don't badmouth my employer here I prefer not to name them publicly so I can keep things compartmentalised, but I'm happy to let you know their name on a DM so you can keep an eye on their recruitment pages.
Ugh, I feel this so much. I’m self-diagnosed likely autistic and I have had this throughout my life. Some people would get so mad at me. So I’ve worked to mask or limit how much I do it.
I was always brought up believing I was very artistic Nicole, it was only recently when mother was on her deathbed, she pulled me near and whispered gently in my ear; “no my son, you’re fucking autistic” 😩😂, totally agree, unfortunately for me, it ended in violence quite a few times 🤷♂️😏🤕🫵😘🕊️❤️🔥🌟🙏
My Aspergers son does that. We don't think he's being argumentative but rather perseverating to the exclusion of almost everything else, which can be highly frustrating for all parties concerned.
Spent my entire childhood being told that I’m argumentative and that I “always need to be right” but you explained it super well. I’m not diagnosed and I don’t know for sure that I ever will be but I’ve gotten a lot validation from the autistic community in the last few years 🖤
I know that I am real stubborn and argumentative as much as I try not to be but usually I'm more argumentative and I know I'm right. Even if I'm partially right. But I'm very reasonable until it feels like the person I'm a disagreeing with can't handle being wrong and keeps repeating themselves.
It’s awful, and even worse when you’re naturally NOT a talker but can’t shut up bc of the need to be correctly understood. One conversation can leave me exhausted for the rest of the day.
Just us normies here who've sometimes wondered why our autistic spouses/partners can't ever seem to drop it realizing we've been the assholes this whole time 🤣. Thank you for this perspective! 🫶🏼
ADHD in a relationship with an autistic, and we either immediately get it or just have to quickly understand we cannot... It's difficult, but luckily our neurodivergency seems to be on the same wavelength more often than not...
I struggle with exactly this. I’ve been treated like I’m stupid my whole life and then when I try to explain something, I’m told I can’t handle criticism and always need to be right when I’m actually just trying to get somebody to acknowledge my input as a thought-out stance and not “nonsense.”
At work. If I know you heard & understood what I know & my thought process, & still disagree, I’m ok doing it your way. In fact, I’ll assume you likely have access to info I don’t. But if you cut me off, I’m not sure you know the entirety. & it feels immoral to risk the co. over myself.
Not even my mother, who went to nursing school and supposedly "has a touch of the tism" (jfc) understands this. She always calls me contrarian even though I am merely thinking with pure logic and I'm trying to make sure she isn't misunderstanding.
Do not relate. When I am in a disagreement with another person, I'm still seeking what is right while gauging the perspective of the other and trying to orient them in the same direction. When they reveal that they only want to feel as though they're right, I break down their wrongness (argue).
It's often a compulsive thing for me, I literally cannot not start talking, other people can interrupt me and break me out, but it's often a total fuge.
I wish more people understood this.
I’m raising my 8 yr old granddaughter, she is incredibly literal in her thinking and responses and will correct others which has caused her teacher to label her as disrespectful.
Got to keep in mind that she is not correcting the person, she probably has no care whatsoever about the person, she just wants the information itself to be right.
Oh absolutely, I’m frustrated at a teacher who can’t understand this.
She corrected my husband in the car the other day when he said “ I’ll turn this car around if y’all don’t stop fighting “
Her response was flat direct and factual “ this is a Jeep, it is not a car”
I got SCREAMED at for this by my stepfather as a kid, to the point where I still have the occasional bad dream about it. I needed him to be accurate, damn it!
I’m so sorry, Everyone deserves to be understood.
I’m hoping that I am handling speaking gently to my granddaughter , even though it’s oftentimes exhausting.
not entirely. If you feel you are right, autistic or not, you have ever right to defend your position, stand your ground and not back down. If someone calls that "argumentative", so what? I stand on principle ande fact all the time. If someone doesn't like that, fuck'em
How many times have I had to rephrase, frustrating the other person to the point of anger when suddenly you see the lights go on and they say, “Ooohhh, I see what you mean”.
NT s are very lazy brained. Even the smart ones. "Overthinking" is just an insult for spending a little time considering the topic on more than one level.
Comments
who continue to lose jobs because of his aggressive behavior. Lately he is having trouble with
Spent my whole life doing it, and everybody assumes I'm the most argumentative person, when in reality I just never truly feel understood most of the time.
It just feels like almost everything I say is taken the wrong way, leading me to explain it over and over, hoping to get through.
Also I can remember so many times when I've been mis quoted, even right in front of me to others, and that boils my blood!
It seems that a lot of people hear what they want to, for good or bad, and whilst that's bad enough, to then pass that message on incorrectly to others makes me have to attempt explaining myself all over again.
Thank you
My kids are in their late 20s; I still have to explain that I talk while I am trying to understand things, I'm not being crazy--MY BRAIN WORKS DIFFERENTLY.
As theirs do--but we are seldom on the same plane.
To everyone: if you don’t understand, just say so.
- demand that folks respond in a certain way is controlling.
- demand that folks interrogate their world at all is invasive.
- arrogation of the role of ethical / moral judge is pretentious.
- condescension is insulting.
You abuse people for fun.
Stop it and address your own deficits.
fuk. 😬
People hate me for this sort of behavior and I get super frustrated with them.
how do you make someone in the spectrum *feel* understood?
I can only answer for myself. If there's a possible issue with them understanding, then I ask them to explain to me what they think I mean. If they can do that, it can help to clear things. Even...
Obviously this won't work with people I don't know well.
And TBH, I don't know many people well Bcoz most drive me nuts. 😣
So for me to feel understood you have to understand and then confirm it literally via explaining your understanding verbally.
TDIL I need to slow down and let others do what they need to for their own peace of mind. I need to be more mindful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlv_aZjHXc
So, it never got resolved, and it's done some lasting damage to our relationship.
So, what I try now is to frame issue in elements like, "How would we decide something is true" (assuming external issue). I try to get "Why I believe".
And sometimes? I just have to pick which issues are worth the intervention.
Best wishes!
But I don't need my initial position to be right. I argue to find/achieve rightness and am reluctant to quit before I get there.
*Although I sometimes feel I must be on a spectrum of some sort & my adult kids think it likely
If I'm asking questions or challenging a point they can get irritated as they can't see the relevance, but I'm seeking key pieces of information so I
To make things worse, because I'm coming at things from a different angle I can often spot problems they do not. This is an advantage to me professionally and it is a skilled that has been recognised by some, but a lot of the time I've been ignored,
I should stress that my current employers are very good, but this has definitely applied at places I've worked previously.
acknowledge you comprehend the persons perspective
Just kidding! Lol
You are doing great Nicole and thanks for explaining something about autism!
If I'm wrong, I want to know why. If I think you're wrong, I need to explain why.
#shitmymumsaid
I did apparently drive her simultaneously
'up the wall'
AND
'round the bend'.
Always multitasking, me.
#audhd
Go take a long walk off a short pier = too tired to argue with the idiots anymore.
#shitmymumsaid
I’m raising my 8 yr old granddaughter, she is incredibly literal in her thinking and responses and will correct others which has caused her teacher to label her as disrespectful.
She corrected my husband in the car the other day when he said “ I’ll turn this car around if y’all don’t stop fighting “
Her response was flat direct and factual “ this is a Jeep, it is not a car”
I’m hoping that I am handling speaking gently to my granddaughter , even though it’s oftentimes exhausting.
Just watched an interview with Eric Schmidt, 15 years at the top of Google/Alphabet, 55th richest.
Message is that if Americans cannot be educated in critical thinking, we won’t know who to believe or what.
Lazy doesnt feel right.
If people simply agree with you, what can anyone learn from that?