Heh. As far as I'm concerned, there are two types of developers. Type 1: "Only 30% of our players do a romance, so it should remain unimportant overall." Type 2: "30% of our players do a romance *despite* it being unimportant, and those are our most ardent fans. What if we made it... better?" 😉 - ThreadSky

davidgaider.bsky.social • 12 days ago

Heh. As far as I'm concerned, there are two types of developers.

Type 1: "Only 30% of our players do a romance, so it should remain unimportant overall."

Type 2: "30% of our players do a romance *despite* it being unimportant, and those are our most ardent fans. What if we made it... better?"

😉

Reposted from Devin Madson | Rebecca Ide

my gods someone please just throw lots and lots of money at David Gaider and let the man cook. please let us have this game, universe, we deserve this

Comments

moratorii.bsky.social•11 days ago

I remember hearing about this years ago at MIGS, I believe it was about Mass Effect 2 maybe? And how Bioware had chosen to embrace the way that different fans were approaching the game. It was an inspiration at the time for character studies and branching narratives.

knight1029.bsky.social•11 days ago

Do you also think that sometimes a developer just has to go with their vision even if the data, or players, don't support it? I feel myself much more attracted to games that have a strong vision that isn't that broadly appealing. I also feel that those games last long because of such a vision.

knight1029.bsky.social•11 days ago

Like the data is important but if it comprises on what people liked about the game then should they really be listened to?

wanderingdm.bsky.social•12 days ago

I'm firmly a type 2 person then

nessakirby.bsky.social•11 days ago

I love me some social relationships in games, be they romantic or otherwise. Like, my biggest gripe with the Persona 3 remake was no girl mode, so no romancing Akihiko.

Also can’t go through Mass Effect without romancing Garrus.

nadescape.bsky.social•11 days ago

“Data-driven decision-making” yet ignoring that 30% of players might be ~millions of people~

plumeplumette.bsky.social•11 days ago

and that's why some gamers (including me) have been following you since the very beginning of your games.
Thank you for your work.

nimbletypo.bsky.social•11 days ago

I am more likely to buy a game that has romance than one that doesn't. I also actively look for games that include romance...Will i still play one without it? sure, but most of the time I go "romance would have be nice in this game."Especially games that are centred around multiple characters.

natascha83.bsky.social•11 days ago

Saaame !!

devinmadson.bsky.social•12 days ago

and there are players like me who will not bother with a game if it has no romance, but will sink hundreds and hundreds of obsessive hours into games that do. i will find every last piece of elfroot and complete every single side quest but only if there’s a Dorian to go home to and smile at

kaijarayne.bsky.social•11 days ago

Same. Was talking to my eldest this morning about how I find games more realistic if there's romance/intimacy involved. I feel if done well, it adds another layer to a narrative.

It can't take the place of other things, but I'm more likely to spend time and money on a game with romance than not.

themoonis.gay•12 days ago

It’s so frustrating that when a small number of dedicated fans exist for something straight men like it’s a cult classic and when a small number of dedicated fans exist for something women like it’s grounds for dismissal.

silvarils.bsky.social•12 days ago

mmm I have a lot to say re: this double standard popping up in creative leadership, but I will keep my mouth shut :)

farore5.bsky.social•11 days ago

Oh my goodness I never thought about it this way. 😭

themoonis.gay•11 days ago

Case in point: young justice had a larger than usual female fan base, which was part of why it was originally cancelled, because marketing firms don’t think women and girls will buy action figures (which is INSANITY)

themoonis.gay•11 days ago

Mirror’s Edge, a game with a female protagonist was given something like half the marketing budget of other male-led games.

justdanikat.bsky.social•11 days ago

A good romance storyline cam draw in players like me who aren't that fussed but can be persuaded. I was somewhat surprised to learn my reoccurring role-play character is not only open to romance during her adventures but very definitely has a type

nicktatorship.bsky.social•12 days ago

I wonder how much of yhe 70% would do a non-romantic friendship. The downtime with the team in DAI was exemplary, especially trying to get the advance copy of HiH for Cass and she's all flustered about it. Coryphawho, it's the squad for me

erikalivingstone.bsky.social•11 days ago

Come on now. It was the lesser known, critically panned Tethras title "Swords and Shields" that she was after 😉

https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Guilty_Pleasures

nicktatorship.bsky.social•11 days ago

Sorry I just lived it, didn't have time to write it down. (It's been a while and unlike my Inquisitor, I am only human)

edibleflowers.bsky.social•11 days ago

Dorian's interjection during the conversation, her snapping "You stay out of it, Tevinter," and his response of, "I couldn't finish the last one. I actually feel dumber for having tried" as he sauntered off is a bit that has stuck in my head for ten years for a reason

phoenixxheart13.bsky.social•11 days ago

I'd happily take more romances in games and deeper ones too. I loved Dorian's romance in inquisition and would happily take more romances like that.

beckycunningham.bsky.social•11 days ago

What if, and I'm just spitballing here, game companies considering romance realized that there are a ton of genre specialists out there who could be consulted/hired?

The number of game romance flubs I've seen that could have been easily avoided...

raallen86.bsky.social•11 days ago

I want to be able to romance my squad mates in Call of Duty.

No, no, the multiplayer mode.

davidgaider.bsky.social•11 days ago

I suppose I should add: while it might seem otherwise, I don't think one type is better than the other. Using data to drive decisions is good - relying solely on anecdotal data and gut to drive all decisions is a path to its own sort of madness - but relying solely on it leaves no place for vision.

davidgaider.bsky.social•11 days ago

The thing about data (and telemetry, in particular) is that there's also a tendency to see what you want to see in it. It can also lead to a "follow the leader" type development we see a lot, where dev teams only look to what's currently hot and what's already proven and see no value in inspiration.

davidgaider.bsky.social•11 days ago

At some point, I think you do need to put the data aside. You need to ignore what players *think* they want and imagine what they *really* do - that's your role as a dev, and it's a scary one... particularly since convincing higher-up publisher types of that is nigh impossible. 😉

frotee.bsky.social•11 days ago

That’s like marketing (or software development, or anything really): You can’t just do what the clients *say* they want, you have to really listen and understand what they don’t know yet that the *actually* want.

magnificentjosh.bsky.social•11 days ago

Matt Colville has talked a couple of times about how, when getting playtest feedback, he just wants to know whether people think something works in its current state or not, and not what they like or don't like about it, because people are often wrong about what that actually is.

allanshoe.bsky.social•11 days ago

I remember once asking one of our studio GMs when an EA dude was present about whether an over reliance on past data would ever undercut our ability to genuinely try something new.

Answer wasn't great though EA guy was also in attendance haha.

trickweekes.bsky.social•11 days ago

I remember people arguing to cut certain romances, and then I looked at the telemetry and pointed out that more people played some of those romances, percentage-wise, than played a dwarven Inquisitor or a rogue, so if we were looking for cuts, they were welcome to start there.

knight1029.bsky.social•11 days ago

I would have missed dwarves if they were cut. They are such a cool race in Dragon Age. Absolutely top tier fiction.

sarahday.org•11 days ago

Is it normal that I read "not many people play rogues" and thought "awesome, more loot for me"

That's normal right

That's normal and okay

drsbaitso.vip•11 days ago

Perfectly normal. Perfectly okay.

Shadowy, silent high five.

spinningmouse.bsky.social•11 days ago

I don't really understand why romance in games is so looked down on. It's ok when it's a preplanned romance with set characters, but you give players an option and suddenly it's tacky.
Though having also played various types of VNs for years and seeing how people react to those i have suspicions :/

knight1029.bsky.social•11 days ago

I think a big reason why people don't like it is because they think people are taking it too seriously and are diminishing real life romances. That is at least what Josh Swayer, Obsidian developer, says is the reason he doesn't like romances.

nellq.bsky.social•11 days ago

Looking at the dwarf rogue Inquisitor I did my first playthrough on: "Oh." 😅

malefiquinn.bsky.social•11 days ago

Wait really? I know most DA players choose mage and with good reason, but is rogue that impopular? I'm getting sidetracked from an important discussion, I'm aware, it's just that rogue has always been my fave class and now I'm curious

saendra.bsky.social•11 days ago

Rogue and warrior were honestly shit in DAO, because they were turbo-boring. But warrior at least was sturdy. So I'm not surprised that rogues were so low.

thejbru.bsky.social•11 days ago

After Origins, I always played a rogue on the first play-through of a DA game because otherwise you missed some early loot.

trickweekes.bsky.social•11 days ago

I don't remember Veilguard telemetry, but on DAI, it was like... 15%? It was low. I think that mage and warrior are intuitive, but "like the warrior except light armor and more finesse" isn't a big selling point for folks.

I loved how rogue played in Veilguard, so maybe it picked up there.

talonofmyheart.bsky.social•11 days ago

But I always play a rogue. Why would anyone want to play anything different 🏹 What an odd concept.

emer.net•11 days ago

Add more! Don’t make me wait until next game to romance Harding! And then distract me with Neve! 😆

blazypika2.bsky.social•11 days ago

seeing as my main rook is a rogue dwarf i am pleased neither was cut...

corbynred.bsky.social•11 days ago

How dare (affectionate) you potentially remove my beloved Meliora Cadash rogue Inqy. 😀

davidgaider.bsky.social•11 days ago

Funnily enough, that *is* why removing the ability to play an elf or dwarf in DA2 wasn't considered a big deal at first. To a degree, having options - even ones you don't use - is considered important by a lot of players. Who knew?

leliwardens.bsky.social•11 days ago

Insightful commentary as always. I've always appreciated the attempts DA has done to make every choice matter no matter how few would pick it.

It's refreshing to have "this is objectively a morally dubious route but here's the storyline for it" vs "you picked The Evil Option say goodbye to content"

feralknights.bsky.social•12 days ago

Yessss. The amount of surprised people that get mind-blown/love it when they see the Warframe's visual novel-style IMs/chats and relationship system that culminate in the New Year's Kiss scene and how many branching conversation trees there are that cross over with different characters in it.

feralknights.bsky.social•12 days ago

Hits so different when you lean into it and let it cook.

mefcorv.bsky.social•11 days ago

Really if they just made games like DAO for the rest of my life forever I would be happy.

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