Guns have been part of Forgotten Realms since 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms Adventures (1990). Fantasy gun haters BTFO. - ThreadSky

jesawyer.bsky.social • 98 days ago

Guns have been part of Forgotten Realms since 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms Adventures (1990). Fantasy gun haters BTFO.

I'mma be real the gun argument is actually frying my brain. I hate how much D&D and the rpgs based off of it have tried to scrub guns out of the fantasy tech level.

Comments

quiethusky.bsky.social•98 days ago

Speaking as someone who isn't fond of medieval fantasy guns for TTRPGs in general, my fear is that players will try to rule of cool their way to being OP else make a big joke out of it versus something mechanically interesting. (Pathfinder's fine because there are clearly defined rules.)

clairvoyantvibes.bsky.social•98 days ago

People imagine it'll be like Farus the Elder Wizard running around with an AK but in reality every gun would likely miss at any real range and it's a fantasy game just say dragons scales are hard enough to reflect bullets or some shit. Cowards lmao

chbarts.bsky.social•98 days ago

You need to keep it clean or else it'll foul, rain is its natural enemy, it requires gunpowder which you can't just find everywhere, and it's harder to reuse bullets than arrows. Plus, of course, you become a guy walking around with gunpowder on him in a setting where enemies throw or breathe fire.

chbarts.bsky.social•98 days ago

Point being, it isn't overpowered, it's only arguably better than bows or crossbows and has some serious downsides, especially in the setting.

truetimetraveler.bsky.social•98 days ago

The thing about players that want guns in fantasy is that everyone would have guns, not just the PCs trying to live out their Dawn of the Dead shooting dream. If a player wants to feel special killing NPCs, what's wrong with a fantasy appropriate weapon? #ttrpg #nogunfantasy #fantasy #dnd #osr

jesawyer.bsky.social•98 days ago

why would everyone have guns

truetimetraveler.bsky.social•97 days ago

For the same reason why the PCs would have them - they are a more effective way of killing in the highly dangerous and violent world that Fantasy RPGs are set in. Hmm, more effective than other weapons every power that can will set to making guns. Ergo guns will be everywhere. #ttrpg #osr #fantasy

jesawyer.bsky.social•97 days ago

that didn’t even happen historically in the early modern period so idk why it would be that way in a fantasy setting

truetimetraveler.bsky.social•97 days ago

We are talking about players' desire to have ready availability to guns like it's the wild west, but also have an expectation that other people don't have the same access.

kaitave.bsky.social•97 days ago

This sounds like you're having an entirely different argument over a thing nobody else has been saying, tbh

jesawyer.bsky.social•97 days ago

i’ve never had players in fantasy settings with guns assume or vocalize a desire for NPCs to not have guns - usually because how guns are mechanized makes them useful within a specific niche but not so powerful that the obviate the need for other weapons.

truetimetraveler.bsky.social•97 days ago

If you are using historical parallels, then vagabond heroes would not have guns. If they did get a gun, then they would be impractical due to the needs of gunpowder and functionally too long reload times. We are talking about fantasy murder machines in a world with magic and gods that walk the earth

jesawyer.bsky.social•97 days ago

idk why you think that in systems that generally treat (and mechanize) crossbows as viable alternatives to longbows that single shot smoothbore guns would naturally be mechanized as the weapon to end all weapons.

druastrophel.bsky.social•98 days ago

The people deserve to make Kaptain K. Rool inspired dragonborn on the sly

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/donkeykong/images/a/a6/Kaptain_k_rool_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210112164313

cervid19.bsky.social•97 days ago

Not a big ttrpg player but I am a fan of the early modern period. Surely 9/10 people also look at musketeers and the whole knights with guns aesthetic in general and think 'that's cool as fuck'

mattcolville.bsky.social•97 days ago

BRING THE FRIED ONIONS!

misshoneyd.bsky.social•98 days ago

my next D&D campaign is gonna have so many guns in it, since I'm advancing the timeline to cowboy times in my setting.

numberoneashe.bsky.social•98 days ago

entangling some varmints making a ruckus in my town

williamlejeune.com•97 days ago

The 1e AD&D DMG (1979) has rules for a Boot Hill crossover. The very first D&D module (Temple of the Frog) had machine guns. And Murlynd in Greyhawk canonically wields a pair of six-shooters...

williamlejeune.com•97 days ago

And then, of course, there's all the laser weapons in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (1980)

paleogrund.bsky.social•98 days ago

I still have to grin thinking of the FG game I ran where, to keep Gondites and the Lantanese 'mysterious', the Sword Coast was plied with merchantmen and galleons bristling with decks of ballistae and fore-and-aft catapults. Nobody called me out, but they should've.

infosecgoon.bsky.social•98 days ago

The Spelljammer campaign setting (early 1990s, I think?) featured rifles and cannons pretty heavily.

haitchkay.bsky.social•98 days ago

Pathfinder once again wins because not only does the setting have guns, it has an entire region that doesn't really have magic anymore and that's where guns, black powder, and steampunk constructs/construct limbs come from.

Alkenstar rules so much.

ponyus.bsky.social•97 days ago

I think pillars was part of what made me re-examine my dislike for guns in fantasy, mostly because it used more tech-level appropriate guns. I went from a hater to a lover, as long as it's not "1860s wild west gunslinger in 1400s fantasy land".
Hell, now I'm even making a game around muzzle loaders.

contiguouskittycat.bsky.social•98 days ago

I know Ed rewrote some of that at some point I think.

baronbucket.bsky.social•98 days ago

A big argument against firearms is that they’d be too OP against fantasy/medieval weaponry. Half the party is already throwing around fireballs and can magically shatter metal objects on command, a flintlock that does sightly more damage than a bow is not going to change the balance all that much

numberoneashe.bsky.social•98 days ago

from the people who brought you martial vs magic: bows vs guns!

juv3nal.neocities.org•97 days ago

susceptibility to heat metal arguably makes them more vulnerable than bows/crossbows.

moxiemonarch.bsky.social•97 days ago

Careful. Don't let the gun nuts here you say that. Had a player once who was so into guns it bordered on a fetish. He would get so upset if there was any form of firearm in our DND games because they'd be "grossly underpowered" and would go on hour long lectures about it, despite the fact

moxiemonarch.bsky.social•97 days ago

That clearly no one was really listening to him.

Guy was also a transphob, so after I slowly quite quit him from the table, I now put guns in every fantasy setting I have out of pure spite 😁

niallrixon.bsky.social•98 days ago

"you cast fireball? I cast lead bullet!"

ashcan.bsky.social•98 days ago

it is so funny to me that rapiers and flintlock pistols were introduced at about the same time to europe and one is incontrivertibly in the Fantasy Tapestry and the other is one that many major settings is terrified to include

rileyj.me•98 days ago

I just always assumed it was because guns don't "feel" fantastical since we still use them, even if modern guns have very little to do with historical ones. Same reason that most future guns are pew pew lasers.

numberoneashe.bsky.social•98 days ago

see also why there are so many complaints about monk, because we all have a body and fists even if that's not the point at all lol

ashcan.bsky.social•98 days ago

if your fantasy setting doesn't have wuxia elements and makes monks seem aesthetically offputting you're leaving money on the table

numberoneashe.bsky.social•98 days ago

for real! that shit is so cool and not many of my usual suspects are fuckin with it 😔

ashcan.bsky.social•98 days ago

that's a big part of it, and for d&d specifically i think they a) didn't like it aesthetically and b) may have struggled to mechanically differentiate them from crossbows, which already provide less stat investment and high damage at the cost of long reload times

ashcan.bsky.social•98 days ago

also having major accuracy penalties in a ruleset where it is already extremely difficult to balance AC runs the risk of either making it totally useless or a complete non-issue

i like pf1e for having guns hit touch AC but require close range, which is a great wrinkle mechanically and flavor-ly

leagle.bsky.social•96 days ago

It's funny how terrified people are to include them, because early guns sucked.

You had to make a device like something an Artificer would build in order to have a decent firearm until the flintlock came about. Aztec armor could stop 16th century musket rounds better than spanish plate armor.

leagle.bsky.social•96 days ago

It's funny how people don't include guns for fear of them being "overpowered" when in reality, a period accurate gun would be like casting firebolt with a 50/50 chance of the barrel detonating in your face.

leagle.bsky.social•96 days ago

Something like this was just about the best gun money could buy as of the 1500's. It used a fly wheel to create sparks and failed to fire half the time, requiring the user to wind it back up before trying again. God forbid you missed with a wheellock, cause you're not getting another shot.

ashcan.bsky.social•98 days ago

i will always appreciate you and paizo for keeping it 100 and going "yeah dude of course we're gonna have some other reinaissance stuff, that shit rules"

healthycheekums.bsky.social•98 days ago

Crying tears of joy when I can actually use a gun in a fantasy game

numberoneashe.bsky.social•98 days ago

I'm not the biggest fan myself but seeing how many people are having your reaction tells me you deserve this win haha

digitalvergil.bsky.social•98 days ago

For real, next time i get to play PF2e as a player I am extremely tempted to go for a Gun Dwarf because why would I *not* play a dwarf who is given a handgun at birth?

I love pathfinder because of the characters that the overlap of its setting and rules let you create.

ashcan.bsky.social•98 days ago

rn i'm doing an orc investigator but if she dies i'm rolling a dwarf and seeing if i can get a clan dagger and clan pistol and make that shit work

ashcan.bsky.social•98 days ago

i know it replaces the clan dagger... but begging the GM on your hands and knees to do something *really cool* always supercedes that, esp if i pay a gp cost or something

digitalvergil.bsky.social•98 days ago

A dwarf who makes magic bullets, a sentient pumpkin with a magic pet cat, a halfling paladin who gets drunk to punch devil-worshipping nazis, an android who worships android jesus, and a literal bear who is a master of stealth and disguise is an entirely valid and canon pathfinder party.

litvoid.bsky.social•98 days ago

Its very funny because like yeah people were using arquebus guns in like the 1400s alongside shit like spears, swords, bows etc like they belong in a setting of that era

vivi-sected.bsky.social•98 days ago

Some dudes were going into WW1 battles in plate armor. Most people don't realize how recent "old" technology really is.

litvoid.bsky.social•98 days ago

I mean its always assumed that with technology and with improvements with arms and armour, that it's an immediate switch to a new uniformity and like that's never been how it works. It's wild to me, like as merely an enthusiast, how often people get that aspect wrong

jacenat.bsky.social•98 days ago

Guns in fantasy settings are cool.

veilsedgegames.bsky.social•96 days ago

"Historical Accuracy" enjoyers trying to argue why a setting shouldn't have guns but should still have rapiers and full plate armor

brad-talesuntold.bsky.social•97 days ago

I've seen fantasy games include compound bows and not touch guns.

Some Knights had guns. On horseback. That's sick!

You could wear plate armour while wielding a gun, holding a dachshund, and eating a sandwich in DnD and the sliced bread would be the most anachronistic part of the whole scene!

jctenton.bsky.social•98 days ago

but to get guns you have to interact with............. gnomes

agnosticnixie.bsky.social•98 days ago

And tragically every edition of D&D from 3e on was written by people who never forgave the writers at TSR for it

graysond.bsky.social•98 days ago

players terrified of putting things into a fantasy realm that they believe would set "history" into motion. My dude you already have agriculture and guild labor and you're worried about gunpowder?

ertrick36.bsky.social•98 days ago

Fantasy fans who loathe guns can somehow accept that their favorite worlds have grand palaces that reach into the clouds, but not that some gnome in a cave fiddled around with magic and metal pipes enough to make them fling little projectiles really fast with the force of tiny explosions

acsoverride.bsky.social•97 days ago

Renaissance shit in fantasy goes so hard, case in point Warhammer Fantasy

bonnedigital.bsky.social•97 days ago

Using a sword/gun combo in Avowed and having way to much fun with it. People don't like fun it seems.

pawek13.bsky.social•98 days ago

One of my favourite aspects of the Pillars universe are the firearms. How common they are in Eora really helps this setting stand from the others I've experienced.

ashemedai.bsky.social•98 days ago

Wasn't that the whole spiel of Gond and his bestowal of gunpowder on Lantan? I remember his followers, especially the gnomes, having this angle of use of firearms.

konkondragon.bsky.social•98 days ago

I always wonder how much of this is people not understanding that black powder firearms aren't anything like post-1860s firearms and don't "break the setting". I've had folks make the argument that if there were guns in a fantasy setting, players would "snipe the dragon from a half mile"??????

kamenotaku.com•98 days ago

Blackpowder is one of the few advantages the humans get in Warhammer Fantasy, both in the wargame and ttrpgs. When magic is just a likely to explode your wizard as it is the enemy, some pike & shot is as fine a way to face down hordes of beastmen, chaos warriors, and literal demons as any

numberoneashe.bsky.social•98 days ago

the lords of hell after I'm done with them

drboi11.bsky.social•98 days ago

Making a gunslinger in a fantasy setting and having him constantly complain about joint pain because he keeps trying to run and gun with a line musket.

plainoldchair.bsky.social•98 days ago

They'd shoot at it with their flintlock, probably miss, then spend the next 4 rounds reloading it

grinningserpent.bsky.social•98 days ago

That's the only problem I have with guns in so many D&D adjacent settings. It takes a while for an experienced user to charge, load, and ready a period accurate replica. And that's being done without a monster swinging at you the whole time. Reloading guns mid combat should be highly impractical

simons-mith.bsky.social•98 days ago

Well, yeah, very early guns, you fired once, then put the gun aside and used another weapon.

grinningserpent.bsky.social•98 days ago

Yeah, that or you had three or more ranks of shooters. One row shot, fell back, and reloaded while the next two or more ranks moved forward, aimed, shot, repeat. Accuracy was miserable but when you have 500 dudes firing all at once in a line, even a 70% hit rate is still a *lot* of hits.

bigdialecticenergy.bsky.social•98 days ago

Reloading a crossbow in a fight isn't particularly easy. Depending on the crossbow, it's not much faster than the gun. Some you can load in six seconds, some are a stretch, and some of them you're cranking a windlass for the entire fight.
If you can shoot a heavy crossbow every round, a gun is fine

numberoneashe.bsky.social•98 days ago

yeah at the end of the day it's just another fantasy means *fantasy* thing, if you include guns you may as well make them good to boot

bigdialecticenergy.bsky.social•97 days ago

Right. And there are lots of ways to do it. Or make guns extremely powerful but you fire it once and have to ditch it, but then you've fundamentally just made a spell scroll. So it's something you could very easily do, if you wanted the concept of a big blunderbuss that can fuck up one person's day.

begemot.bsky.social•97 days ago

Warhammer Fantasy had guns and strict rules for reloading

But there was one unit in the mercenary faction that was a bunch of dwarven pirates, and they didn't have to reload because they just had A BUNCH OF EXTRA PISTOLS LOADED AND READY TO FIRE

agnosticnixie.bsky.social•98 days ago

Honestly I see people wildly underestimating them as much as I see people wildly overestimating (for one no, guns wouldn't have been adopted if they were objectively worse than crossbows) but that falls into the realm of people wildly overestimating bows thanks to english pop history

grinningserpent.bsky.social•98 days ago

Guns were worse than crossbows for a while. It took a fair amount of time and development before we were able to shrink down a cannon into something man-portable and both accurate and reliable enough to hit the opposing blob of people consistently. Around 16th century I think?

katerinabucket.bsky.social•98 days ago

the uses of a handgonne from the 1410s are incredibly niche but the uses of an arquebus from the 1510s are at worst lateral to a crossbow, and most "medieval" fantasy is very 1500s in other respects

grinningserpent.bsky.social•97 days ago

Yeah, FR is definitely anachronistic and so is Golarion. I appreciate it when settings put effort into explaining the tech that people have and its advancements or lack thereof but that's definitely on the wargaming side of tabletop more than standard roleplaying.

konkondragon.bsky.social•98 days ago

ye there's a lot going on with this, lmao

nyarlathotep617.bsky.social•98 days ago

Half a mile is very silly. Certainly a dragon sized creature, at 1,000 feet would still have enough velocity to do some real damage- maybe a bit longer depending on angle.
But hey im not a huge fan of Renaissance firearms in dnd. I think it should be like 1500's at the latest.

brentscipio.bsky.social•98 days ago

Another reason Battle bros is so good. The gun exists. It does damage. It's kinda one-use in skirmishes. Cool stuff. I hope Menace is a good game too.

konkondragon.bsky.social•98 days ago

with a smoothbore????

I mean if I was running a tabletop thing and that happened I'd be treating it as a fuckin bard the bowman moment really

kludge.bsky.social•98 days ago

these dorks should go look ar the ad&d 2e rules to see that (a) there have been firearms in high fantasy games since before they were born and (b) they explode in your hands 1/3 to 1/2 of the time

kludge.bsky.social•98 days ago

oh shit i didn't scroll all the way to realize i'm just jinxing josh lol

whirlpoolofrage.bsky.social•98 days ago

Even if you did allow 19th and 20th century guns, in most D&D settings players can use magic to teleport, become intangible, or raise a force field. A Tommy gun wouldn’t be op against any of that.

grinningserpent.bsky.social•98 days ago

At some point ballistics technology reaches the point where the Mage gets sniped without even knowing anyone was there. But then you get into divination magic.. Anyway, if magic exists in the setting it stands to reason that guns wouldn't be like they are in reality. Eberron kind of explored this

konkondragon.bsky.social•98 days ago

you're preaching to the choir here, lol, I literally run a PF2 game in a heavily final fantasy inspired setting where my players have fistfought chicken walker mechs

libertyprimeusa.bsky.social•98 days ago

With the right feat chain in 3.5E...

excretusmaximus.bsky.social•98 days ago

Shit, man, the first ever module for D&D had alien laser guns in it...

numberoneashe.bsky.social•98 days ago

M&M will always be kino for this. throwing out my super enchanted greatsword because I just found a fucking laser rifle and a robot is gonna teach me how to tear ass with it

beaufordhammersham.bsky.social•97 days ago

"Guns shouldn't be in fantasy" and "use a crossbow instead" make me scream. As if guns and crossbows don't share weaknesses with guns just *actually having penetrating power* to counter plate armor. Trying to retcon *gunpowder* is just... wild.

tomhunt.bsky.social•97 days ago

i literally learned what an arquebus was from seeing it listed in the 2nd ed player's handbook and going down that rabbit hole.

voice-of-robin.bsky.social•98 days ago

Of course, famously there wasn't any technological development during the medieval period. The people knew, at the time, that the vibes would be off and it would create a real headache for their descendants.

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