The Israeli position in regards to the West Bank and Gaza--namely that it has total sovereign right over the territory but no countervailing obligations towards the population--is one that I'm genuinely not sure any other country in the world holds towards any other territory, at this point. - ThreadSky

goldwagnathan.bsky.social • 12 days ago

The Israeli position in regards to the West Bank and Gaza--namely that it has total sovereign right over the territory but no countervailing obligations towards the population--is one that I'm genuinely not sure any other country in the world holds towards any other territory, at this point.

Reposted from Emissary Of Night | ليلى

I'm gonna hold your hand when I say this but there area very famous series of revolts that happened between 1880 and 1922 that you may want to read about

Comments

hayesthunderfoot.bsky.social•12 days ago

Except that Israel left Gaza entirely in ‘05, before Hamas was elected and violently took it over, and in ‘95 the Oslo accord which established the PA and it’s sovereignty over parts of the West Bank and Gaza, and of course in 2000 when both regions were offered to Arafat for peace who rejected it.

junayt.bsky.social•12 days ago

They removed settlers

That doesn't mean they ever left

rismith.bsky.social•12 days ago

Have you been in a coma for the past 18 months and just awoke?

kittycan.bsky.social•12 days ago

More like the last 25 years.

haredurer.bsky.social•12 days ago

Israel withdrew ground troops from Gaza in 2005, but keep it under blockade, controlled its airspace and sea access, and periodically bombed and invaded it. It was just a different phase of continuous occupation since 1967.

flootzavut.bsky.social•12 days ago

LOL bruh if you control the air space, water, cell networks, access to fishing grounds, ability to leave or enter, imports & exports, electricity, etc, then you occupy that territory even if you no longer have actual boots on the ground.

hayesthunderfoot.bsky.social•12 days ago

Bruh, a terrorist organization was elected and violently took over the strip killing hundreds of Palestinians in the process (y’all’s dumbasses were dead silent too). Sorry you don’t like the security measures which went into place AFTERward.

Dumb shit.

4017xan.bsky.social•12 days ago

All these arguments fade into insignificance in the face of the enormity (and I do mean outstanding evil) of Israel’s continuing genocide and the US support of it.

Rant and abuse away pro-genociders: nothing absolves you.

shimp806.bsky.social•12 days ago

You know someone is honest and well informed when they start throwing around the word “terrorist” as if it means anything.

goldwagnathan.bsky.social•12 days ago

The Palestinian Authority is not sovereign, it is even less independent than the South African bantustans, this is not actually something that the Israeli government claims so I don't know why you're pretending to believe it.

hayesthunderfoot.bsky.social•12 days ago

No. Palestine is not a sovereign state. The Oslo accords gave the PA full self governance of the parts of the West Bank that it has sovereign control over.

This was mutually agreed upon by both the PLO and Israel. bantustans are a historical non sequitur and false equivalence. Dumb fuck.

hayesthunderfoot.bsky.social•12 days ago

And as such the bantuatans were designed by South Africa’s formal apartheid policy. The Oslo accords however were designed as a gradual peace process to give all of the West Bank over to Palestinians. But then the intifadas happened and Arafat rejected it.

Get your stupid ass an education on this.

faeelin.bsky.social•12 days ago

So if Palestine is not a sovereign state who is sovereign over that land

scooterbones.bsky.social•12 days ago

Oop, there go the goalposts. Just going to keep rolling to your next talking point. It's a wonder to me anyone ever fell for you hucksters.

mkranz.bsky.social•12 days ago

Hamas was elected in 2007. Here’s a BBC article from Nov 2005 stating clearly that “Israeli forces … retain control over the movement of all goods and trade in and out of Gaza.” We could also have a whole conversation about the epistemology of the word “terrorist.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4472854.stm

hayesthunderfoot.bsky.social•12 days ago

Hamas was elected in 2006. In 2007 they mounted a coup against the PA unwilling to co-govern with them in Gaza and in so doing murdered hundreds of Palestinians in the process (losers like you were silent meanwhile) and you expect Israel to live next door to them without security precautions. No.

mkranz.bsky.social•12 days ago

You're right about 2006; I hit the wrong key. 2006 is still *after* 2005, which is when the BBC article I shared was published. Also, if you feel the need to call me names and make assumptions about what I have & have not said in the past, it doesn't speak to the tightness of your argument, my guy

melari.bsky.social•12 days ago

blocked the clown in your comments who constructed an alternate universe in which israel offered to withdraw from east jerusalem (lol wut) but here is s good write up on the idiotic and pernicious myths of the 2000 camp david negotiations for anyone who is interested

diplomatofnight.com•12 days ago

Shocked by the author name lol didn't realize he was writing about it around that time

melari.bsky.social•12 days ago

plus ça change

also of course i only noticed the typo after you reposted 🤦

rismith.bsky.social•12 days ago

Maybe Morocco in regard to Western Sahara but it's a vanishingly small group.

choyudeok.bsky.social•12 days ago

It's not but I'd love you to explain how it's in any way similar?

rismith.bsky.social•12 days ago

Do you need help understanding what denying the right to self-determination is, or bombing your subjects while denying them the right of free travel means?

choyudeok.bsky.social•10 days ago

You're hilariously/tragically misinformed on the Sahara issue.

hamzabouziane.bsky.social•9 days ago

righ to self dettermination only for morocco?? what about other countries ? is it just because morocco colonized by two colonizers then we should let every colony decide to self determination? that's part of colonialism

goldwagnathan.bsky.social•12 days ago

Burma and the Rohingya has also been pointed out, in that the government has classified them as foreigners despite living inside the country.

imurcia.bsky.social•11 days ago

No, it has nothing to do with the Sahara. The Sahara was part of Morocco before European colonization. Furthermore, the population of the Sahara is the same as the population of the rest of Morocco: Arab-Amazigh and Sunni, and has the same way of life.

rismith.bsky.social•11 days ago

So your position is that you can commit as many war crimes as you want as long as they are ethnically the same. Cool.

hamzabouziane.bsky.social•9 days ago

bro no crimes out there, come visit moroccan sahara and see yourself. normal as any other city

martin509.bsky.social•12 days ago

I don't say this lightly but yeah I'm not even sure I would categorize the Russian attitude to Ukrainians that way.

goldwagnathan.bsky.social•12 days ago

It often resembles it in practice, but the government of the Russian Federation at least argues that the people who live in the regions of Ukraine they've "annexed" are citizens. It's a very low bar, and most authoritarian states at least pretend to clear it!

koenig-jakob.bsky.social•12 days ago

Yeah the claim that 🇺🇦s are really 🇷🇺s suffering false consciousness is different.

Indeed, Russia is trying to force Ukrainians in the occupied "annexed" new territories to become citizens..

koenig-jakob.bsky.social•12 days ago

And are indoctrinating kidnapped Ukrainian children into becoming Russian - and of course eligible for conscription.

lobosolo69.bsky.social•12 days ago

Puerto Rico is a close contender

goldwagnathan.bsky.social•12 days ago

Puerto Ricans have US citizenship and full freedom of movement within the USA.

vman29397.bsky.social•12 days ago

But you also

Erased our history

Tried to wipe out spanish

Bombed our lands

Illegally spied on us

Cracked down on pro independence movements

I can go on

jamie252.bsky.social•12 days ago

He's not saying it's good.

He's just saying there are differences.

lobosolo69.bsky.social•12 days ago

Sure but if a radical death cult started to take hold in the PR population that wanted “death to all America” how do think we would respond after an attack?

vman29397.bsky.social•12 days ago

You responded to sugarcane workers demanding fair pay with fbi spying and massacres

faeelin.bsky.social•12 days ago

What if Charlie Brown had hos

ironnosy.bsky.social•12 days ago

It and the UAE are basically the model that our aspiring Adolfs of the 21st century are basing their beliefs around. A world where the logic of citizenship justifies anything done to those that do not have it.

fromthenotebooks.bsky.social•12 days ago

Many act like Israel has acted but you are right that few are so blatant in admitting it

americaninlisbon.bsky.social•12 days ago

I complain about my kids not being taught history properly, but it's really been a problem for a while, hasn't it?

personalbrand.bsky.social•12 days ago

Partial list of similar situations:

China and Tibet
Iran and Eastern Kurdistan
Morocco and Western Sahara
Myanmar and "Rohingya"
Russia and Georgia
Sudan and Khartoum State
Turkey and Northern Kurdistan
Yemen and Sanaa

robbinsa.me•12 days ago

not quite the same as these are all either states claiming other states territory or being shit towards "internal" minorities

only one I can think of similar is western sahara?

goldwagnathan.bsky.social•12 days ago

Plenty of states who rule over people who don't want to be ruled, but they usually don't claim that the people are foreigners with no rights while simultaneously claiming sovereignty over the territory. China argues that the Tibetans are Chinese citizens, etc.

taisasganzerla.bsky.social•12 days ago

From these examples Myanmar and Rohingya tracks. Decades of statelessness, a government that labels them foreigners and, since 2017, displacement of half of the total population into neighboring countries.

taisasganzerla.bsky.social•12 days ago

One difference of course is that the Rohingya never sought an independent state, they only demanded recognition as a legitimate minority in Myanmar. So in that sense Palestine might actually be unique as a people denied both national independence and assimilation through citizenship.

lucysetonw.bsky.social•12 days ago

Was about to write Yes, but actually, it's the position of every invading state at war. And that's what Israel is: at war, but with a population. No army or even defence in sight. Weep.

sosorryaboutthat.bsky.social•12 days ago

Wrong. Unless you add: every invading state "committing war crimes"

lucysetonw.bsky.social•12 days ago

Israel claims absolute sovereign rights, *and* is conducting a war on the population. But if it had absolute sovereign rights, it wouldn't be waging the war.

mobutt.bsky.social•12 days ago

This is why people describe Palestine as a 'prison'. You control every aspect of a prisoner's life, much more than you would a citizen, but they're not actual citizens with voting rights and human dignities

sosorryaboutthat.bsky.social•12 days ago

Prison managements feed the prisoners

techsticles.bsky.social•12 days ago

The US sort of handles West Virginia that way.

ninasimonesgum.bsky.social•12 days ago

While there are others, one huge difference would be that it is not controversial to criticize e.g China or Morocco but any word of criticism towards Israel is met with accusations of antisemitism and thus shut down. The impunity is what's really unique here.

sosorryaboutthat.bsky.social•12 days ago

💯 it's legit scary to criticize them

alexisvoidling.bsky.social•12 days ago

both the US and Canada do keep violating reservation treaties and building pipelines over the indigenous land and their water sources.

not to say that we are currently doing what israel is, but we definitely wrote this playbook.

goldwagnathan.bsky.social•12 days ago

It's a very low bar but the US and Canada do clear it.

unlabeledelder.bsky.social•12 days ago

The American government's treatment of Native Americans and their land at a minimum rhymes with this.

goldwagnathan.bsky.social•12 days ago

The US granted citizenship to all Native Americans in 1924; there are ongoing debates about treaty obligations and tribal rights, but the USA does not deny that it has an obligation to treat Native Americans with civic facial equality.

bettyboopsmom.bsky.social•2 days ago

Some might say: Shouldn’t it have been the other way around? Shouldn’t the native population give citizenship rights to those who immigrated to USA? Who was here first? Truthfully doesn’t planet earth belong to all of us? Shouldn’t we all be able to move about it more freely and safely?

chchch-cherrybomb.bsky.social•12 days ago

Lol. So essentially what you’re saying is that you feel Israel shouldn’t exist at all.
You’re literally stating what Hamas and the rest of the Arab Muslim world wants, which is no Jewish state
JFC

goldwagnathan.bsky.social•12 days ago

I have no idea how you manage to reach that conclusion, but you can always read my actual position, if you're curious.

unlabeledelder.bsky.social•12 days ago

I don't think this is gonna help you, but it's a laudable effort! "Two-state solution" is anti-semitic these days.

unlabeledelder.bsky.social•12 days ago

Well, let's see if Trump and SCOTUS reverts to treating Native Americans like we did for the majority of American history. Not that it's great now, unless a tribe is near enough to white people to hook em on gambling.

(Hope Trump doesn't find out about the casinos, you know he'd extort them!!)

oneoneder.bsky.social•12 days ago

So you agree then.

unlabeledelder.bsky.social•12 days ago

Agree with what, exactly?

charltoncussans.bsky.social•12 days ago

Argentina and the Falklands? They're shitty to the Islanders even when they don't occupy them.

sosorryaboutthat.bsky.social•12 days ago

"Shitty"
Are you sure you've got a PhD? because holly fuck

charltoncussans.bsky.social•12 days ago

I firmly stand by my statement that Argentina has treated the Falklanders like shit even after they were forcefully stopped from shitting in the homes of Falklanders.

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