Before moving to impeach, we need to seriously ask ourselves if Vance would be any better. He doesn't have the ego to think he knows what he's talking about, and I think that's the only thing getting in Trump's way now; himself.
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Surely, Vance was in on this. He so wants to appear relevant that he was at the meeting with the Salvadoran president. He could probably be impeached for being part of the decision to defy the Supreme Court (or for a number of other high crimes).
This was MUCH more controversial than I realized! To be clear, I'm not suggesting that we don't bother trying to impeach the orange bastard, but I do think that Vance would be worse. The thought that we'd have time to impeach more than one person in a term is kinda funny, though.
No, but you need a charismatic leader as an energy source in order to be effective. Himmler, Goebbels and the rest needed Hitler, they would have been nothing without him.
I think they could conceivably do it simultaneously. I am less sure about impeaching a Veep or what the charges would be. Still, pretty sure it could be done.
Not funny in my book people being kidnapped and deported to another country massive prison. Do you lack any empathy. This is a now moment. You best be doing something to fight like everyone else!
thank you for clarifying:) I've had those thoughts in the past, but this is so beyond the pale now. We have to show we care by enforcing consequences. Due process should be a nonpartisan line in the sand.
I’m sorry but with all due respect if you think there are going to be real elections ever again…I’m sorry you have a level of optimism that borders on fantasy. Respectfully.
Schumer-think.
In only 84 days Trump has destroyed the rule of law and begun sending people to gulags in a foreign country. How much more damage can he do in the next 567 days until that election?
I am afraid to think how much worse it will get. Every day has been a nightmare. In fact, I may move out of the country. As a 70 yo, it’s not what I would have ever expected.
It’s going to have to be United and for an extended period of time. It would show the people are in charge of this shit as well these elected officials work for us. Take the republic back
The biggest difficulty in saving our democracy is that we're still fighting OURSELVES because the Orange man isn't accountable for his actions. Our government was set up with TWO SEPARATE checks on presidential power, and corruption took them both out.
It didn't start on January 20th, 2025. There were already big red flags during his 1st term and before!
McConnell blocking Obama to name a Justice for instance.
I think Vance would be too busy trying to hold his bowels after watching Trump get carted off in cuffs, tbh.
If Trump went to trial for the shit he's done, it means Vance is next because he's complicit. I feel like he'd be on the next flight out of the country.
So is Trump, though, he has NO idea what he's doing. He's held up by people who know how to game the system, he's a figurehead. I think there's a fair chance that if he went away, they'd replace the figurehead with a new Teflon deity.
The biggest issue with Vance, I think, is that he doesn't present nearly as confident and charismatic as Trump does. Despite what we may think of him, Trump has learned what to say to get his followers to do his bidding. Vance doesn't have that skill, nor the time to build it.
? "but I do think that Vance would be worse."
In what world would he be worse? Trump has thumbed his nose at America and the Constitution enough to absolutely know, without a shadow of a doubt, that he will continue to do so. He will burn it all to the ground to save himself. Vance?
The fact is that unless the citizens of the United States make it clear that the rule of law is not negotiable and, despite what the Supreme Court says, even the President is subject to it, the entire democratic experiment is over anyway. This is the hill we have to die on.
Vance has not spent his entire almost 80 year old life as part of a transnational crime organization, he is not well liked by anyone nor does he inspire the fear to republicans that Trump does. And yes impeach whoever tries to destroy our democracy with their power.
He's younger and doesn't care if people like him. Trump's vanity keeps him lying (poorly) to save his reputation (also poorly), Vance already has a fair portion of the country believing he boned a couch and wrote about it! I don't think he has any fucks left to give.
I’m tired of the argument that says let’s let the tangerine dictator do what he wants because Vance may be worse. No! Wrong is wrong. Impeach that bitch.
I'm in no way disagreeing, but they couldn't impeach Trump with a smoking gun in his hands. How exactly will they be successful when they've villainized everyone who isn't them, and his cronies in DC are more prevalent than ever? I'm only saying that to remove him without a plan is a bad idea.
I agree it will be next to impossible to impeach him, but we need to do whatever we can to slow down the destruction he is committing on our country and our relationships around the world.
Actually we don’t have to f&%€ing ask ourselves that at all. If a president defies the law and tries to be a dictator, remove him by any means necessary. If his replacement does the same, rinse and repeat. This is not a fucking ‘devil you know’ situation that’s up for discussion. No f&$£ing kings.
I can't believe this is a conversation right now. If we dont move to impeach, the USA is over. If we move to impeach maybe Vance will be worse? Is that seriously a question?
I don't think we have to think seriously about whether Vance would be better because filing articles of impeachment while in the minority in BOTH chambers is not a serious act. It's a waste of time and energy better put to fighting in committees, holding hearings to shine light on what is happening.
Honestly, I don't think it matters if Vance would do the same thing or not if we're going to let Trump just do whatever he wants. It's about setting a precedent and standing up to fascism
Vance doesn't have the cult following Mango Mussolini does. Vance is widely detested (and rightly so). Yet he's been groomed by Thiel et al to be their good soldier. So...yeah. Dunno.
Vance is a piece of shit, but nobody in the GOP is afraid of him. He does not have the cult leader hold over the voters and other Republicans.
In fact there are probably a number of other GOPers who think they could replace trump and it will cause division as they try to outmaneuver him.
No, we don't. We impeach the guy in charge. And if that succeeds and the next guy thinks he can do the same thing, we impeach him too. That's how the system works.
Also let's be real, Vance does not have the juice or the stranglehold on the party that Trump does. Vance is a pissy pants with huge loser energy, and there is no cult of personality around him. Nobody is afraid of him like they are Trump.
The Republicans will all vote against it, so what. File for it anyway. Make them all go on record and say "flouting court rulings is good and fine." Hammer them with it over and over. There is no waiting on the midterms - if Dems sit on their hands while this is happening then they are complicit.
Trump is a captivating performer with zero morals/ beliefs and giant willpower. He is kind of like a gun which anyone can load- and so he has brought together a bunch of unscrupulous factions who want to use him to increase their own power. I say with Vance these factions would fall apart.
They have to do SOMETHING. And vance doesn't have the support or the following of trump. Not that it matters - they'll never get the votes to impeach anyway. But at least show a fucking effort.
It’s not about Vance. It’s about asserting the constitutional order of things. A removal of Trump reinforces the mechanisms by which the American democracy has a chance to survive.
Vance is weak and crumbles under pressure. He would never be as brazen, and nobody would let him. He can be bullied into submission. And if he tried anything, remove him. *If* they can remove Trump, Vance is nothing.
Don't think it would matter much. Vance isn't the cult leader. Trump is basically MAGA's untouchable godking. If you remove him, you'd deal a lethal blow to MAGA morale. It's hard to say if the movement would stay cohesive long enough to even consider supporting Vance.
I disagree. If 47 deserves impeachment and it can be done, we should do it. Then, if Vance is as bad or worse, we should do it again. Etc. (Acknowledging that right now it’s all theoretical.)
The issue is that Vance has been running the White House as temporary President every time Trump has a medical trip, which has happened multiple times. A portion of what we're living through is the Vance presidency in addition to the Trump presidency. As such it can't be worse than all this.
Yes, he has a colonoscopy trip this month that is resulting in Vance being put in charge for over a week.
Of course, Trump loving media is downplaying the situation leading up to the trip, claiming it is a routine regular colonscopy, that his health is perfection, there is nothing to fear, etc.
Vance is a pussy. He’s too sissy to appeal the toxic male and doesn’t have enough charisma to hold the attention span of the rest of the cult. I think MAGA would fall apart.
It sends a message, it’s optics for sure, but to not do it because the VP might be worse is a lukewarm response that’s a one way ticket to normalizing MAGA behavior.
Hard disagree, sometimes you need to be performative - you have to be disruptive to get attention, penetrate the Fox News echo chamber to those who may have voted for him, but hate what is happening!
So? That makes the choice "not fit to lead and following the rule of law" or "not fit to lead and not following the rule of law". And I have a preference.
I think this is a great point, and that we need to stop settling for least corrupt, but how to we elect the incorruptible? The people we WANT as leaders can't get any attention for the noise that the bad actors are making? Incumbency rate is 97% in the US.
If someone commits an impeachable offense, acting on that shouldn't be influenced by whether the person replacing them is better or worse.
Not that it matters, since Trump is literally unimpeachable. At least by the current congress. I believe that he could shoot someone and nothing would happen.
When the house is on fire, you deal with the problem in front of you. Then you move to the next one. Vance is horrible but people were saying in 2017 that we shouldn't remove Trump because Pence would be worse. If Vance starts violating due process then you impeach him.
I understand what you’re saying but consequences be damned, the current POTUS is in blatant violation of his oath and the law. How we feel about Vance is irrelevant to the facts of an impeachment decision.
The thought of Vance as a poss. president terrifies me too, but he has nowhere near the cult status that Trump does, no blind followers no rich people and corporations that "owe" him or take his grift. He would not be in office very long, he would be much easier to get rid of. Nobody even likes him!
I worry that it's less about their personal liability, and more about passing the baton. Let's say the legal system actually works as designed and trunk is impeached. Whoever he endorses to the cult is the new king du jour. They know he can't live forever.
Mike Johnson, #3, would be equally horrible, but he is such a lily livered boot licker, a blind cowering follower w/no ideas of his own... it prob wouldn't be too hard to get rid of-or at least neuter-him once Trump is gone.
I can't wait til we never have to see Johnson's stupid fucking smirk again
I understand your point, but completely disagree. Any decision to impeach a President should NOT be dependent on the quality of the VP. If it’s a legitimate impeachment, it must stand on its own.
Nobody respects vance. That was clear in the signal chat when he disagreed with the plan and they brought miller in to tell him to stfu. At minimum Vance would have the knowledge that he could be impeached too. Nothing is worse than this.
The push for impeachment is about driving the narrative that Trump is a tyrant. We can't sit back and let people be gaslit by Trump and a compliant media. We must insist tyranny is the only subject worth discussing.
I dont think we have time to game it like that. Impeach Trump and then deal with the next phase. Vance doesn't have the following T has, nor the charisma.
It’s not the cult of Vance. He’s a monster, too, yes. But the Trumpers don’t love him. They solely love dear leader. Trump being impeached and convicted would make a difference.
JDV is inexperienced and lacks the criminal infrastructure and the iconic status his boss enjoys among maga devotees, even if he’s just as amoral. He would likely be less successful at nuking the country. He couldn’t be any worse. That’s how I see it.
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This is a high crime. If not for this then what?
Don’t worry Vance will step right into impeachment without much effort.
Go forward, Soldier Defender of Democracy! All of us lovers of democracy have to be out there protesting and demanding impeachment. Now!
In only 84 days Trump has destroyed the rule of law and begun sending people to gulags in a foreign country. How much more damage can he do in the next 567 days until that election?
McConnell blocking Obama to name a Justice for instance.
If Trump went to trial for the shit he's done, it means Vance is next because he's complicit. I feel like he'd be on the next flight out of the country.
In what world would he be worse? Trump has thumbed his nose at America and the Constitution enough to absolutely know, without a shadow of a doubt, that he will continue to do so. He will burn it all to the ground to save himself. Vance?
He doesn't have Trump's following. If Trump goes down, he isn't gonna push his luck. He'd probably cave and resign.
In fact there are probably a number of other GOPers who think they could replace trump and it will cause division as they try to outmaneuver him.
Yes, I believe he is more intelligent and calculated, certainly a threat, but he clearly lacks the X factor of TFG.
And without his base, Trump would be powerless
The things that make Trump impeachable—convictable, even—are not suddenly unimportant just because of the guy who comes after him.
He will always find another way out if actual consequences are not brought upon him.
Too
Of course, Trump loving media is downplaying the situation leading up to the trip, claiming it is a routine regular colonscopy, that his health is perfection, there is nothing to fear, etc.
Not that it matters, since Trump is literally unimpeachable. At least by the current congress. I believe that he could shoot someone and nothing would happen.
I can't wait til we never have to see Johnson's stupid fucking smirk again
The push for impeachment is about driving the narrative that Trump is a tyrant. We can't sit back and let people be gaslit by Trump and a compliant media. We must insist tyranny is the only subject worth discussing.
Vance after the example of Trump being impeached and removed from office for breaking the law, would be better.
And so will the next president. And the one after that.