True, but you have to be able to follow it up with actual good things, not just add more names of people to kill. That's the catch. You can't just stop at the show of force. There has to be more (granted, sometimes this would not be hard to accomplish)
The idea that violence itself is as evil as evil itself has always been propaganda to keep people in line. Violence DOES work and it works really well and thats why authorities keep using it against us.
in my experience, if some person or entity is being a very dangerous problem that threatens to continue being a very dangerous problem in the future, the best method of preventing said danger is to remove the problem.
Trying to put them in prison just opens up the possibility of escape or release.
"Oh so you killed a CEO who was indirectly and directly in most cases responsible for the death of 69000 Americans?
I guess you are just as evil smh....vengeance and taking justice in your hands bad or something idk, you should've let the State (CEO's puppets) take care of it eventually...
"
Qualifier needed. Vengeance for its own sake is the malign thing (and, I’ll note, something Trump seems to adore). Vengeance for the sake of keeping the malefactor from doing further woe is a different story.
I mean, you *do* have to watch that you don't get carried away and start perceiving any slight, doubt, or criticism of you... as being in league with the actual bad guys.
But "taking the high road" can be a trap in itself, especially against bullies. And violence to overturn socioeconomic injustice is absolutely warranted. Especially with the "civil" options under increasing threat and kind of timeframe we're faced with.
Like, you listen to Erik Kilmonger, or the Flag Smashers, and they say shit that makes you agree with them. Then it feels like another writer burst into the room and said "NO. FUCK NUANCE. MAKE THEM CARTOONISHLY EVIL BEFORE THE FINAL BATTLE."
I mean the colonizing issue was not new, imperial Japan may be the prime example of that.
But also is a thing against changes that affect the status quo (that is favorable to western countries now).
Happens all the time in liberal media. They introduce a villain and give him a just and moral motivation, but then they have them blow up an orphanage or something so the heroes can stop them and preserve the status quo.
The "I agree with your goals but not your methods" BS.
Something that's stuck with me from my youth is the scene in Max Payne where Max realises he's just been lying to himself pretending to be unwillingly doing a necessary evil, but that his enemies are actually completely fucked up and his revenge is just.
Just like SEED both-sidesing a conflict between the ontologically-evil Earth Alliance and the spaceborne nation of ZAFT who literally don't do anything wrong until the very end just so the writer and director's self-insert OCs don't look like complete idiots.
in addition I feel this whole line is about a different context from some kind of direct action. you can't kill JUST for vengeance, there needs to be a further goal than just that.
the context was someone killed his best friend because said best friend was on the opposite side of the war and killed one of the first guy's other friends
all three characters in question are teenagers piloting war machines this wasn't some grand finale thing this is the middle of the series
To paraphrase the friar of Röde Orm, "I don't give a shit about your souls. What would you do in heaven anyway? You'd pester our savior for ale and grab his mother's tits. No, as long as wolf eats wolf, the lambs sleep soundly."
we also have tended to build societies where select members (not surprisingly, usually the same as I mentioned above) can dictate what are and aren't crimes.
This is a false dichotomy. Its a viewpoint that pretends the options are 1: lay down and take injustice, or 2: gun a man down in broad daylight. It doesn't work that way and acting like it does just gives more ammo to the people who want to paint the oppressed as being oppressed because they're 1/2
deserving of it. There are not two sides: vengeance vs bootlicking. You can be against murder and not also be for the status quo. Letting people think vengeance is justified just gives bad actors in all groups more excuses hurt people and get away with it on the grounds that it was "vengeance." 2/2
Ah yes, the good ol' slavery strawman. "We shouldn't murder people." BUT SLAVERY THO! Using slavery to justify murdering people you don't like just so you can say it's "vengeance" is fucking stupid and you know it. Where do you draw the line? You can't just assassinate any government official, 1/3
politician, insurance owner, and god knows who else just because they don't agree with you and call it "vengeance!" You might have every right to believe you're in the right but all that does is perpetuate the violence! Something needs to be done but justifying anarchic violence with 2/3
"righteousness and vengeance" is exactly what every hate group on this planet does. Make the world a better place but don't do it by becoming worse than the people you want to save the world from. 3/3
That's also definitely not what I said. My position is not that there are two black and white choices, it is that the idea that violence is never justified or that it is always evil is naive. It should rarely be pursued as a first option, but it should always be on the table.
Buddy, I didn't maim, kill and burn a village of innocent people minding their own business, violate and enslave women and children and CERTAINLY didn't take away healthcare from people that needed it for profit. Fuck off.
Okay, but there's a distinction here. Revenge implies that you're motivated by your own grudge harbored against the person or entity. It's when there's a legit reason like trying to stop them from harming someone else when you can argue that it's not even revenge anymore.
They don't bother to differentiate the difference between justice and vengeance, and that's very much intentional.
Because the result of both, for them, may as well be identical.
Especially when the "evil" revenge is killing one person, while the target of vengeance was responsible for the deaths and suffering of tens of thousands, if not millions.
Honestly the only way to make that trope worse is when the character carves a bloody path through a horde of people that are only barely related to their target. to get to the actual target of their revenge
Only to now think that they've gone too far and kinda make every prior death be pointless.
It is true that evil takes advantage of people with a strict sense of morality because generally speaking it means they won't use the same tactics against the oppressor that they are being oppressed by. George Bush didn't need to orchestrate 9/11 to take advantage of it, just saying.
Here are 3 things your oppressors demand from you:
1. Politeness
2. Respect
3. Gratitude
Here are 3 things that won’t end your oppression:
1. Politeness
2. Respect
3. Gratitude
It's the sort of thing someone would say who so lacked imagination that they thought there was nothing other than them. The catch is, whack them and then it's on you or on SOMEBODY to in fact be better. The catch to the catch is, sometimes that's not at all difficult
Vengeance against evil is best utilized by someone who can use it responsibly. When it's not utilized responsibly, things can go downhill very fast. Batman for example literally admitted that he can't bring himself to kill even the Joker because he knows he wouldn't be able to stop at just one.
I've kind of said something similar about "The Grass is Always Greener" being a sneaky way for leaders to stop the masses from viewing their society critically and comparing it with others to decide what they might want to try different.
OK, since y'all are here - When I was a child in a Franciscan Catholic school, I decided that passivism was the way to go. Turn the other cheek. As a result I was bullied for years! Until one day I punched one, broke his glasses and make him cry. <1/2>
Same thing happened to me. I was bullied my entire life until in one encounter I said "this is why shootings happen" and added "who's to say what will happen if you don't stop". I was suspended for several days, but no one messed with me the rest of the year. It was worth it.
Hermes deserved so much better after that arc, not gonna lie. If Foo Fighters wasn't in part 6, Hermes would absolutely be my favorite character from that part.
I think that it isn't so much whether you take vengeance or not, but how you do it. If you lead a revolution through immoral means, odds are the new systems you create will be immoral as well. It's important to oppose evil without losing sight of the original message or purpose of doing so.
Comments
Trying to put them in prison just opens up the possibility of escape or release.
I'm not referring to the actuall @ that made the comment
I guess you are just as evil smh....vengeance and taking justice in your hands bad or something idk, you should've let the State (CEO's puppets) take care of it eventually...
"
"Yes, profiting off the suffering and death of millions is bad but you can't just DO SOMETHING about it!"
Erik Kilmonger wanted to end colonialization, and then also colonialize on behalf of wakanda? It felt like two seperate villain motivations.
But also is a thing against changes that affect the status quo (that is favorable to western countries now).
The "I agree with your goals but not your methods" BS.
And the realisation pretty much breaks him.
"If someone is killed for vengeance, and that person gets killed for being a killer, nothing actually changes."
it's about the philosophy more than just pure numbers
all three characters in question are teenagers piloting war machines this wasn't some grand finale thing this is the middle of the series
This suggests there are exactly two choices: vengeance or nothing. Either you're for vengeance or for bad guys.
And that's inane.
The historical problem with...
So we build societies with systems of justice to ensure that bad people are punished accordingly.
The problem with that is that...
THAT is the problem that needs fixing.
For example: everywhere else in the world...
So rather than the people fighting to change this... they celebrate a murder.
And nothing changes.
Bravo.
"You can't do that! Are we no better than they are?"
"Oh, grow up."
"...I can live with that."
Buddy, I didn't maim, kill and burn a village of innocent people minding their own business, violate and enslave women and children and CERTAINLY didn't take away healthcare from people that needed it for profit. Fuck off.
Because the result of both, for them, may as well be identical.
Only to now think that they've gone too far and kinda make every prior death be pointless.
like no my dude, that just makes escape a possibility and prevents the victims from healing, just take care of it now!
1. Politeness
2. Respect
3. Gratitude
Here are 3 things that won’t end your oppression:
1. Politeness
2. Respect
3. Gratitude