I have a weird set of views on this for sort of a libertariany person, in that I think European societies are really good and pleasant, but you have to accept a 20% VAT and this set of marginal tax rates, and the US population will never accept them. - ThreadSky

rmfifthcircuit.bsky.social • 56 days ago

I have a weird set of views on this for sort of a libertariany person, in that I think European societies are really good and pleasant, but you have to accept a 20% VAT and this set of marginal tax rates, and the US population will never accept them.

Comments

funkadelicgringo.bsky.social•56 days ago

Correct. Universal health care will never exist in the US because Americans (even universal health care advocates) would never accept that kind of tax burden.

gwollman.bsky.social•56 days ago

I've argued for a long time that we should have an 18% federal VAT, with a mandatory (not subject to appropriation) 50–50 split to the states (apportioned solely population) to spend as they wish.

gwollman.bsky.social•56 days ago

That 9% would be more than all but the most expensive localities currently collect in retail sales taxes, and collection would be much more efficient. (States without a sales tax could lower whatever other taxes they wish or just refund it.)

gwollman.bsky.social•56 days ago

Pretty much every state would be better off with a VAT rather than an inefficient and easily evaded retail sales tax, but only Congress has the power to enact one.

pablopaniello.bsky.social•56 days ago

Yep, one of the realizations that defined the limits of my liberalism, that made me a liberal and not a socialist

travelbuddha.bsky.social•56 days ago

One thing Europeans don’t have is property tax on their home at anywhere near the rate Americans do.

moderately-grouchy.bsky.social•56 days ago

One of the problems with end user taxes in the US is that the wealthiest are presently immune to them so basically it just fucks the lower and middle class

moderately-grouchy.bsky.social•56 days ago

As an occasional libertarian, I think that if the government gives everyone the same haircut, except perhaps for some people who truly can't afford it, that's a good haircut

We are so so far from that

Capitalism is fairest and best when the rules don't grossly benefit the biggest

brettwolfe.bsky.social•56 days ago

Yes, several European countries are better places to live than the U.S. But in addition to taxes, Americans would also have to accept that dignity, self worth, happiness, and basic rights are uncoupled from income. Too many Americans’ self image is tied to feeling superior to lower income earners.

rwreports.bsky.social•56 days ago

We had those rates for decades in the 1940's and 1950's

blakejcmo.bsky.social•56 days ago

Which is ridiculous because when you factor in health insurance premiums, deductibles, and out of pocket maxes, Americans are paying way more than Europeans for an objectively worse system

rmfifthcircuit.bsky.social•56 days ago

I usually come at this arguing with people to the right of me about whether Germany is a nice place to live, but this way works too

caitesq.bsky.social•56 days ago

It strikes me that the tradeoff in, say, Denmark--you won't feel wealthy, because things are expensive, but the quality of life is good--is not that different from the tradeoff upper-middle-class people make by living in Manhattan and paying for private school.

justinlawguy.bsky.social•56 days ago

But think of how much more superior you can feel living in Manhattan.

rmfifthcircuit.bsky.social•56 days ago

I think so, though I think that tradeoff makes a lot more sense in Copenhagen

jamesjhare.com•56 days ago

From a purely economics standpoint wouldn't replacing income tax with a VAT be a really good deal for basically everyone except the well off?

sparkylombardi.bsky.social•56 days ago

VAT would replace a sales tax, not an income tax.

rmfifthcircuit.bsky.social•56 days ago

Well yes but it would be additional, not a replacement

jamesjhare.com•56 days ago

See in my perfect paradise of rational people we would just replace all income taxes with consumption taxes and everyone would know that they're better off.

txdcny.bsky.social•56 days ago

Replacing all income taxes w consumption taxes increases the tax burden on ppl who spend a higher % of their income, who are typically poorer, and reduces the tax burden on ppl who can afford to save.

jamesjhare.com•56 days ago

Pretty easy to exclude basic living expenses like food and lodging from tax while also doing generous rebates for poor people.

The basic idea is that we should tax things we want less of and we actually want more productive work in the economy rather than consumption.

jamesjhare.com•56 days ago

and marginal tax rates aren't that far off what you get in some of the higher-tax US states for shittier outcomes?

on some levels our discussion of income taxes miss the point that the super high earners don't get it the kind of income we tax heavily.

rmfifthcircuit.bsky.social•56 days ago

The brackets are way different. Total US tax burden is way below European, all in, if you do the figures.

jamesjhare.com•56 days ago

but is that really true if we consider health insurance costs properly as taxes? if we price the negatives of the US's sclerotic state as a drain on income?

jamesjhare.com•56 days ago

honestly the second and third expenses in my monthly budget are health insurance (and the attendant costs above for care) and daycare that would at least be heavily subsidized in nearly any EU country?

What about actual disposable income? Happiness level?

prasad.bsky.social•56 days ago

yes
see also guns

venerablebidet.bsky.social•56 days ago

For a lot of Americans, the tax increase would be a wash with what they and their employer are spending on health insurance premiums but 1. They won’t believe this and 2. If your employer quits paying for insurance they’ll likely just pocket the savings

peterwj.bsky.social•56 days ago

U.S. rates can even be higher…top income tax rate in California is 50.3% (compare to top rate of 47.4% in Norway)

VATs and higher rates on middle-class explain Euro welfare states

but comparing US and Euro tax take isn’t apples-to-apples, since they pay WAY less OOP for health and education…

urban-achiever.bsky.social•56 days ago

We already have tax rates very close to that once we figure in state and federal income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, FICA, etc, etc. We just break it out differently. At least that's the case in a lot of states.

gingerjet.net•56 days ago

My overall effective tax rate (including sales taxes) is no where near what my peers in Europe pay. And I live in California.

urban-achiever.bsky.social•56 days ago

If we add in what we pay for health insurance I'm guessing Europe is still higher, but not by much.

kjephd.bsky.social•56 days ago

VAT is pretty invisible though?

Comments

Posting Rules

Reply