There is a strange faction in US intellectual life that believes that urban crime and disorder are just punishments on American society for not adopting socialism.
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I'm not sure what denying someone a life-saving service that they've been dutifully paying in preparation for falls under. But it shouldn't be capitalism either.
until you got to 'socialism', I thought you were gonna say that they were just punishments for not being competitive enough in the marketplace to make more money and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
There are many factions that believe many variations of the same schema: “ is just punishment on society for not ”. Take for example X = “loss of national character” and Y = “restricting immigration more”. Still strange?
My larger point is that the schema itself should be challenged as a fallacy of hyperbole on what might be good points if not taken to moral extremes (“just *punishment*”?!). Rather than picking on any individual application of said schema.
This is about Luigi, isn’t it? Let me try…. There is a strange faction in US intellectual life that believes that corporations should have the same rights as people, and who believe in Adam’s Invisible Hand as if it were the Holy Ghost.
And there is a faction in, well, publishing life rather than "intellectual", that lustfully does not care about facts anymore, as soon as something "urban" is involved 🙃
Not knowing much about you other than that you are conservative, I’m stuck wondering if you mean literal socialism or just adequate education, healthcare and public services.
If there is a category of people who should be able to speak for themselves, you might think it would be someone who writes for a living, but I’m sure he appreciates your support, even if you didn’t really clarify anything.
What matters is the topic of conversation is established as *urban crime and disorder* and *socialism* and whatever similar phantoms can be conjured as topical bait.
Someone burned a woman alive on the subway. It’s amazing how few of the comments on Frum’s post even mention this, let alone seem shocked by it. “Yr statistics are off, you must be upset by this bc of racism, etc..”. But Frum’s point is fundamentally right. If this
You're gonna be pissed when you find out what lawbreakers are getting up to in Republican controlled towns with 1/1000th the population of big city subway users.
Obviously there’s a lot of crime in red states. But this kind of response, tho it gets repeated over & over on social media, just dodges the issue. Someone burned a woman to death on the NYC subway. Response: yeah but red states are bad (w/o even the briefest pause to express horror
It’s a shame that you have to take a small section of the left, to attack liberals. I could turn it around and say there is a strange faction of intellectual life that believes Jews and Afro-Americans pose a threat to our values. I know that you are capable of smart thinking, so please do it.
There’s a columnist who makes the suggestion that a decrease in incarceration in America by 25% since 2008 has lead to a surge in urban crime and disorder . . . but the latter claim is objectively false.
He is expressing his hurt feelings over the pushback he got on a thread yesterday where he misrepresented statistics in support of an argument apparently supporting increased incarceration in the US.
Not believing that social disorders are well-characterized as “just punishments” for something, I sincerely wonder to whom you are referring. (Even causality is not the same as punishment.) Are you thinking of reactions to the Thompson murder? Something else?
not sure anybody actually holds that view. Many would claim that urban poverty and decline precipitates crime. And that programs you may think socialist would repair the underlying rot, but that seems a different claim.
No. It’s the standard right wing response to any suggestion that the US social contract might be tweaked to alleviate suffering at no meaningful cost to anyone.
‘You want to adopt a blanket top-down Maoist-statist model of government control…? How will that GM the blacks…?’
It truly is about inhumanity. Keep kicking a wounded dog & they will bite. Call a Humane Society & they will rescue. Yet, some would rather shoot. When society treats people worse than animals, it’s time to consider how best to help? Lend a hand, you may need one someday
There is a strange faction in US intellectual life that believes that providing affordable housing, quality primary education and food security is socialism. It’s basic capitalism. Econ 101. Land, LABOR, Capital.
In manufacturing there are two approaches to quality: either just know there’s going to be bad parts &have inspectors at the end of the line to catch them OR set up a quality system where there are no bad parts (through root cause and corrective action). Guess which system US society currently uses.
Fantastic. And I totally agree. I read the book “Evicted” and it confirmed a lot of my suspicions. The majority of people would take a solid house and job, no matter how humble, over the life of crime that they’re forced into due to the lack of a living wage and affordable housing in this country.
I've learned so much from your wisdom over the last few years, and your confrontation of Joe/Mika's hypocrisy was necessary and proper, but you seem to be on a bit of a bender the last few days.
There a large portion of U.S. intellectuals that think using the phrase "urban crime and disorder" won't sound like "black peoples crime and disorder" which is what they really mean to say.
There's also a faction in US intellectual life that believes we have a two-tiered system of justice---one for the rich and one for the working class & poor.
... and since America will never adopt socialism, therefore - they continue - nothing else can or should be done to protect law-abiding city-dwellers from threats and dangers.
I thoroughly disagree. It’s not socialism, it’s socio-economic opportunities that are lacking in urban areas. When people have to take buses to go get groceries because their store closed, yeah that’s a problem.
There is nothing in our recent history to suggest that loading up prisons with low-level drug offenders is essential to keeping public order. Can we have more police officers and fewer corrections officers?
And that is yet another fallacy that should be challenged on its own. “If we had socialism the cities would be safer; we will never have socialism; therefore cities will never be safer.” Fallacy of Denying the Antecedent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent
And yet that small contingent of America is microscopic compared to the systems and institutions in the city, county and state responsible for the safety of city dwellers that fail to protect them.
Portland, thankfully is not listening to these people quite as much anymore. I remember being at a restaurant and my waiter was in terrible distress because his tires had been randomly slashed (with others along the block) so he basically paid to come to work.
This is an astounding (ly) bad take. First, as we descend into fascism, why do you assume we might not rise into some form of democratic socialism, depending on how you understand the term? But id like to see some data on 'no protection for law abiders' hot take.
David, America has already adopted socialism; but the US just won’t admit it. Look at the US budget and how much money is committed to Medicare, Social Security, etc. Same with state budgets. And don’t forget subsidies to farmers and oil/gas. Politicians pretend that socialism is the enemy.
"I'm glad inner city people of color are suffering under the social conditions that result from generations of conservative public policies, because maybe that'll teach them a lesson," said literally no one ever. Shame on you, David. Be more honorable than this.
Countries like Norway and Denmark offer a solid safety net while not adopting a purely socialist system. It can be done but who will think of the billionaires?
There's a "germ" of truth to most crime being the result of a rational cost/benefit analysis. Sometimes, the socio-economic context is such that crime becomes more rational. When this is due to unjust social distributions, something should be done. Socialism? No. But still there's a point there.
One of the things I came to realize long ago is that the Straw Man fallacy is indispensable to the conservative enterprise. Here we have a conservative intellectual luminary answering an argument damn near no one has made.
Just some decent fucking health care and a living wage, please. That's all.
According to who and where? That sort of mindset among the mainstream leftist population hasn't been a thing since the late 60s/early 70s. Come on and join the 21st century with the rest of us.
Idk man if you’re going to beclown yourself by saying things like this about American crime, it seems like you might just not know what you’re talking about on the subject.
i wonder how the increased visibility of a pro-gun-everywhere preference and looser gun permitting laws is affecting crime and protection from threats and dangers
My advice: Don't read replies on social media. Neither Twitter/X nor Bluesky. The weirdest people lurk on here, hiding behind anonymity.
Also, crime is generally down. People do not "feel" it is down because stuff like the horror yesterday still happens, and they are addicted to social media.
You may need a vacation. I have never heard this argument. I’ve heard the right argue we all need to armed. I’ve heard the right lie crime is at historic highs. This? Naw, baby, naw.
Suspect big city-dwellers are no more at risk of crime and disorder as rural or small town folk who seemingly, based on local news reports, aren't without their own law breakers.
Wake me up when Congress contends with an "Adopt Socialism" bill will you.
So, you believe that a violent crime in NYC could only have been prevented if there were more people in prison? Well... it looks like you'll be part of the solution when Trump's DOJ starts prosecuting and incarcerating "the enemies within", e.g., people like you.
Two widely held beliefs:
1. Crime is getting worse.
2. Urban areas have more crime.
Both of these beliefs thrive regardless of reality. They are based on primal human fears, which are exploited for political and monetary gain.
There is also a faction in the US on the far right that believe that everything that goes wrong in this country is God‘s punishment because the US is doing things that are sinful and he’s trying to bring us back to being a Christian nation. So I think you have this on either side of the extremes.
As a life-long lefty, I can honestly say I’ve never heard anyone on the left argue this. Is this, like, one person saying this online? Because it’s not actually a thing.
👆🏽This kind of framing of the identification of societal failings arising from the obscene equality arising from the busted US free-for-some take on capitalism, by anyone to the the left of Mitt Romney, offers a handy window on ‘US intellectual life’ and the ebb that it’s at.👆🏽
Really? The voices I hear pushing the "just punishment" theory all seem to be on the right saying that it is due to the "socialist" policies adopted by cities.
As negated by the right wing strange faction who believe our discontents are caused by all the socialism we apparently already have. So that ought to work out. Can we move on to the abundant rural crime & disorder & the reactionary authoritarian incompetence please.
That's a pretty dumb take Mr frum. Crime is out there because some people are nefarious and corrupt and socialism is the least of their concern hence now we have elected the poster boy as our leader. You are so far off base.
Not so strange. 🤷🏼♂️ Don’t shoot me, I’m just the messenger here but I believe it’s because in a society where there is freedom from want there is no crime. Hypothetically. Otoh, where there is opportunity there is also greed.
Misdemeanor insanity coming from perpetually angry wackos. There's plenty of true crazy out there. Remember hurricane Katrina? There are right-wing wacko christians that attributed that catastrophic event to homosexuality and other lifestyles of which they disapprove.
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The only aid socialist countries offer are soldiers for imperial russia, like North Korea does.
‘You want to adopt a blanket top-down Maoist-statist model of government control…? How will that GM the blacks…?’
In England I believe they are in the 'I'm alright Jack' party.
You continue to disappoint David.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_alright,_Jack
I don't understand your coded message.
Seems we can’t face actual problems with introspection and maturity. We just blame the other team.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/10/27/what-could-have-kept-me-out-of-prison#:~:text=To%20have%20a%20mentor%20who,have%20boosted%20my%20self%2Desteem.&text=Mental%20health%20and%2For%20grief%20counseling.&text=I%20would%20have%20to%20say,risk%20of%20me%20committing%20crimes.
Police are nothing but protection for the rich.
The Soviets certainly didn't eliminate crime.
And I think you'll still call the police if you get robbed...
Just some decent fucking health care and a living wage, please. That's all.
Also, crime is generally down. People do not "feel" it is down because stuff like the horror yesterday still happens, and they are addicted to social media.
Wake me up when Congress contends with an "Adopt Socialism" bill will you.
But don't think you can eliminate crime...or human nature...
1. Crime is getting worse.
2. Urban areas have more crime.
Both of these beliefs thrive regardless of reality. They are based on primal human fears, which are exploited for political and monetary gain.
Socialism is inevitable.