I think what men actually need mostly is to grow up - ThreadSky

baskerville.bsky.social • 7 days ago

I think what men actually need mostly is to grow up

I'm old enough to remember when conservatives thought participation trophies were a sign of the "pussification of America"

Comments

ennui.org•7 days ago

whatever, DAD

wahoonie.bsky.social•7 days ago

Toxic masculinity, the side effect of the permanent indoctrination that a man you must protect, build, dominate and what not.
And when they don't get their appreciation they become violent assholes because they think they're entitled to be adored.

cdchambs.bsky.social•7 days ago

truly. men in every community are surrounded by abundant opportunities to protect, rescue, and whatever else! join a civic organization, volunteer for a food pantry, step outside your door and help the first struggling person you see, for pete's sake!

chrispolpsych.bsky.social•7 days ago

exactly; if my (conservative) father were still here he’d say the same damn thing about this kind of nonsense (and that is in fact what he would tell me on occasion when I was younger and managed to get my head up my own ass)

brainmist.bsky.social•6 days ago

And maybe take five seconds to learn the minimal amount of empathy demonstrated by cats.

marytylerless.bsky.social•7 days ago

Reminds me of this speech and its un-ironic adherents.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=chyRpj-971o

ofvick.bsky.social•7 days ago

Hard times for America when butch lesbians are just objectively better at performing masculinity than straight men

ofvick.bsky.social•7 days ago

The crisis of masculinity is that for the Right the aspiration of manhood is to be the most obviously loathsome guy in the mafia movie, who has zero impulse control and hurts everyone around him with impunity because he's a made man and nobody can raise a hand in their own defense

ofvick.bsky.social•7 days ago

The problem is that the problem is both self-inflicted and entirely unsympathetic, and the right knows it even if nobody else is willing to say it aloud

blueberrymill.bsky.social•7 days ago

I think I get the snark and obviously the OP article is dumb but what's the difference between "grow up" and "man up"

brainmist.bsky.social•6 days ago

"Man up" suggests the sort of dumb bravado based attention-seeking swaggering behavior that we kinda don't want because it's unhelpful and annoying, whereas "Grow up" means to develop the maturity and skills to live and contribute as an adult... y'know, like girls are expected to do by 15.

blueberrymill.bsky.social•6 days ago

That makes sense from your perspective. I heard "grow up" in the same tone of voice as "man up," the message of "suck it up, stop complaining, and fix yourself," with a pull-yourself-by-your-bootstraps attitude

brainmist.bsky.social•6 days ago

*shrug* OK. I'd suggest you grow up, but apparently that won't mean much to you.

blueberrymill.bsky.social•6 days ago

I certainly have much to do. Thank you.

grahammarbles.bsky.social•7 days ago

Wanting appreciation from the unknown masses for extraordinary acts of valor or something, over and above the people who rely on you to behave, is goo-goo-ga-ga baby talk

blueberrymill.bsky.social•7 days ago

yes

busyragespiral.bsky.social•7 days ago

Growing up means a developing a sense of empathy, self-awareness, and responsibility for yourself and the world around you. Man up means stop complaining do the thing whoever told you to man up said to do.

blueberrymill.bsky.social•7 days ago

But does that mean there's overlap? It sounds like both are directed primarily to men to mean "stop complaining and be better." Is it just that one would mean "be better in the Good Way" while the other is "be better [in this Wrong, Patriarchal Way]"?

busyragespiral.bsky.social•7 days ago

It sounds like you've identified that both these things require effort, which provokes a negative emotional reaction. Telling someone they need to grow up is trying to seek their commitment to ideals that are beneficial to society. Telling someone to man up is seeking compliance to do a task.

blueberrymill.bsky.social•7 days ago

Yes, I’m trying to understand a nuance between reasonably demanded effort and unreasonably. Thank you for IDing effort as a common factor.
Isn’t seeking commitment to ideals that are beneficial to society a task to which everyone must comply if there is to be a functioning society at all?

busyragespiral.bsky.social•7 days ago

No, because you'll never get 100% commitment from 100% of people. Society needs enough people to somehow opt into its rules to function. You seem like you're caught in this duality that we only can ever tell people to grow up or to man up. There's no one perfect message that reaches everyone.

baskerville.bsky.social•7 days ago

I’m not sure how you’re using “man up”. I’m responding to the article talking about men needing to “feel like heroes”. I think an important part of adulthood is performing your duties without needing to feel or be made to feel like a hero for it.

blueberrymill.bsky.social•7 days ago

Certainly, I agree w. what you said about adulthood, and that the article is ridiculous. I'm responding your reaction to it. In other replies to different uses I tried to clarify that I'm using "man up" to mean…

blueberrymill.bsky.social•7 days ago

"pull yourself up by your bootstraps to comply to the demand of the task." Is it imperative for shitty men to have to "grow up" in the same way, the task at hand being to perform one's duties without needing to feel or be made to feel like a hero for it?

utopianparallax.bsky.social•7 days ago

I think what this article describes is something very much like the psychological need for "self-esteem". Adults can only really meet that need by consistently behaving in ways that they themselves find estimable. It's not something that can be artificially provided for them.

utopianparallax.bsky.social•7 days ago

If it is true that "all men need to feel like heroes" (and I gotta say, HUGE fucking 'citation needed' on that assertion), I don't think that's something that society can just engineer itself to provide. These are things that belong to the individual's path to moral maturity and self-awareness.

blueberrymill.bsky.social•7 days ago

Certainly, it sounds like more of a deeper existential need (or as you put it, psychological) that isn’t automatically achieved by the right societal circumstances. But that raises a larger q. for me (which I don’t think the OP gives any clarity on, to be clear),

blueberrymill.bsky.social•7 days ago

as to what societal factors help all people, as you put it, “consistently behave in ways they find estimable.”

utopianparallax.bsky.social•7 days ago

I mean that's a big question that very quickly gets beyond men's specific psychological needs and into structural questions, which is where these people never want to go. Capitalist society is alienating and isolating. We do a poor job educating people, and providing the means of a dignified life.

blueberrymill.bsky.social•7 days ago

I guess my concern is the idea that there are no societal responsibilities toward nurturing that consistent behavior in a person’s formation, meaning it’s just a matter of an individual magically knowing and committing to pulling themselves up by bootstraps to behave with that consistency.

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