This thread is STILL going somehow so I'm going to continue my secret third thing: When a perfectly self-consistent framework of "Specific elements of a work of fiction matter significantly less than the ideas communicated by their usage" gets you labelled as BOTH, the classifications are useless. - ThreadSky

tpwrtrmnky.bsky.social • 54 days ago

This thread is STILL going somehow so I'm going to continue my secret third thing:

When a perfectly self-consistent framework of "Specific elements of a work of fiction matter significantly less than the ideas communicated by their usage" gets you labelled as BOTH, the classifications are useless.

Reposted from Typewriter Monke

I do not know what the fuck you're talking about when you talk about "proship" vs "anti", I am not involved in your cultural proxy war over fanfiction

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econenby.bsky.social•53 days ago

i'm seeing folks turn the neil gaiman shit into pro-ship vs anti-ship and i'm like... please have some self-awareness. i am begging you. please be capable of being embarrassed by your own behavior

thewitches.bsky.social•54 days ago

gwen: I have literally no idea what's going on and do not care to learn but I think your point is proven when the response to "I am not involved in your cultural proxy wars" is dozens of comments trying to conscript you lol

sleepinbelle.bsky.social•54 days ago

Best I can tell it's a kind of proxy war between two groups of people who largely don't exist, and they keep having to draft people into the opposing army so they have someone to yell at. The yelling seems to be the primary motivation.

tpwrtrmnky.bsky.social•54 days ago

Yeah yeah, "antis" will see a villain do a bad thing and assert that the author approves of that. I've seen what the "pro" side can incite towards media critics too, this isn't a view coming from a lack of information.

tpwrtrmnky.bsky.social•54 days ago

Part of what makes this entire framework so toxic as a methodology of engaging with fiction, regardless of which banner you're flying, is that it's constructed without any engagement with shit you should've picked up in English class. Both are reactionary, neither has serious foundations.

m0thdu5t.bsky.social•54 days ago

I do agree that someone simply being proship (or having similar views) doesn't make them enlightened or educated on media analysis, though I see many people who specifically agree with your points who call themselves proship because of it. People who are proship are not immune to reactionary +

m0thdu5t.bsky.social•54 days ago

beliefs (in fact, I think some people could stand to be more self-aware in that regard), but at basis your point isn't contradictory to proship beliefs. I'm not saying you should call yourself internet discourse terms. I mean that those beliefs aren't contradictory to your own in many cases.

tpwrtrmnky.bsky.social•54 days ago

Unsurprisingly, a framework primarily driven by mutual grievances between teenagers arguing over fanfiction is a bad foundation to extend outwards, it's not even a good framework for arguing about fanfiction to begin with!

mschemistrymd.bsky.social•54 days ago

The really sad part is, you’d think people would outgrow those mindsets and ideas with time, but nope. They can be pushing 40 and still just as consumed and enamoured with this framework…
My condolences for being a target of both sides here… again.

tpwrtrmnky.bsky.social•54 days ago

You could tell me that group A took out a hit on a prominent member of group B that actually unalived them in real life and I would still maintain that I Do Not Consider This A Legitimate Conflict, because grievances aren't a substitute for having a point.

aliceinwunderl3.bsky.social•54 days ago

This is actually part of the founding mythology of their wars lmao

tpwrtrmnky.bsky.social•54 days ago

Unironically this is World of Warcraft politics, just two groups of reactionaries with incoherent underlying ideologies, differentiated by aesthetics, constantly having grievances

m0thdu5t.bsky.social•54 days ago

I understand a lot of your points, and I don't really think that you have to call yourself proship to be a good person, nor that there aren't issues with both sides - however, this ignores the fact that, while you're correct that grievances aren't a direct legitimizer of opinion, there is a +

m0thdu5t.bsky.social•54 days ago

correlation between harassment and this debate, and to separate the harassment from it is an incomplete assessment of the positions. Simply put, harassment is inherent to many antis, and I don't think this can be separated from the equation.

samantha42.bsky.social•54 days ago

Yeah, this is about the only thing that i could ever make sense of the whole pro/anti thing, what counts as one or the other depends entirely on who is talking.

titivilluswrites.bsky.social•54 days ago

This is what happens when people treat politics and morality as a matter of Performing the Rituals and personal vendetta, so they never progress beyond a school-level understanding of the world.

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