“When you don’t have test scores, the students who suffer most are those with high grades at relatively unknown high schools, the kind that rarely send kids to the Ivy League...The SAT is their lifeline" www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/b... Features a new study by my colleagues tinyurl.com/satvshsgrades - ThreadSky

brendannyhan.bsky.social • 421 days ago

“When you don’t have test scores, the students who suffer most are those with high grades at relatively unknown high schools, the kind that rarely send kids to the Ivy League...The SAT is their lifeline" https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/briefing/the-misguided-war-on-the-sat.html

Features a new study by my colleagues http://tinyurl.com/satvshsgrades

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Comments

geonz.bsky.social•421 days ago

Oh, htere are other folks who suffer just as much! Getting into Ivy League is not life or death.

geonz.bsky.social•421 days ago

The folks at the lower end of the curve are hurt even more. They're told "just take college level math!"

geonz.bsky.social•421 days ago

and it's because K-12 has not taught them that they crash and burn, but we're supposed to just figure ... they didn't have the aptitude. Except "everybody can learn higher math!"

evensong.bsky.social•420 days ago

This is true. I was mostly dismissed by teachers until the SAT scores dropped. My scholarships came from them too. First gen college student on both sides of the family.

weedenkim.bsky.social•421 days ago

One of the (only, IMO) arguments for SAT-optional is disparity in access to test itself. Fee is $60 + $50 if international + cost of travel to test center. Low-income students can ask for fee waiver, but this puts an additional admin burden on them. Would like to see a good solution to this.

peiferlabunc.bsky.social•421 days ago

Nope. The damage it causes is not balanced by this positive

brendannyhan.bsky.social•421 days ago

well, that's.... not a very substantive response. I'd encourage you to read the piece and the studies it links

peiferlabunc.bsky.social•421 days ago

I'm not arguing the benefit for a few students, but the many students in under-resourced schools whose scores leave them out of the big public universities is a huge downside

peiferlabunc.bsky.social•421 days ago

We went through the same arguements for the GREs--it does help a subset of students

brendannyhan.bsky.social•421 days ago

the colleges take into account the backgrounds of students and the schools they go to. they know what a good score is given the context.

the best way to promote diversity is to find students who will succeed who are being excluded/left out. that's what the data show!

brendannyhan.bsky.social•421 days ago

+ alternatives much less equitable (e.g., essays)

andyperfors.bsky.social•421 days ago

As one such kid at one point in my life, I have always thought this. I'm 100% sure I would not be where I am now if it weren't for my SAT and ACT scores.

mehr.nz•420 days ago

💯 No way I'd be in science without the SAT and GRE

schnitzafars.bsky.social•421 days ago

UCLA commissioned a study into eliminating required test scores and the study reported it would disproportionately hurt underrepresented groups but the faculty pressured them to eliminate them anyway

andyperfors.bsky.social•421 days ago

😢😢😢

schnitzafars.bsky.social•420 days ago

I think it was a mob mentality, they just couldn't believe the scores don't advantage rich kids who can pay for tutoring

andyperfors.bsky.social•420 days ago

I mean, the scores probably do. But what they failed to recognise is that EVERYTHING advantages rich kids, and test scores are harder to "game" than nearly anything else.

estarianne.bsky.social•421 days ago

Same

bsarginger.bsky.social•421 days ago

My most contrarian take in my social circles is that these kinds of standardized tests are way better than any alternative that has yet to be proposed and we should be really cautious about why elite institutions would suddenly be cool with dropping them as a requirement.

mgraalum.bsky.social•421 days ago

Tons of poor kids or people who have a bad time in school get a lifeline from these tests.

joshdobbin.bsky.social•421 days ago

I blew a bunch of curves on standardized tests that put me into programs that my graded work (homework, attitude, etc.) would not have gotten me into.

mgraalum.bsky.social•421 days ago

Me too! I had a really bad year beyond my control and had bad grades and a bad disposition. I got to go to college because I test very well.

Now I have degrees in Econ and Chemical Engineering, and at one point got into the snobbiest PhD programs!

joshdobbin.bsky.social•421 days ago

I had no extracurricular activities b/c both my parents worked & I was latchkey. I'd ace tests, but not do homework, so I'd pass, but my grades were eh. I blew the curve on the 1st state mandated test in 1985 then had to retake it alone. Same result. They put me in AP classes after that.

db-user.bsky.social•421 days ago

First gen college here that got a number of scholarships because of SAT scores. While my reading/writing skills were not as refined as a lot of my peers in college, I did graduate with a BS in Computer Engineering.

I dont think my writing skills would allow me to make the point the SAT made for me.

dnakendra.bsky.social•421 days ago

Same, big scholarship and a state grant based on my ACT scores. My writing scores on my gre (even after my bs) weren't great, but i test well.

thatandromeda.bsky.social•421 days ago

I take it you have seen MIT Admissions' blog post on why they reinstated the SATs? https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/we-are-reinstating-our-sat-act-requirement-for-future-admissions-cycles/ They make similar points, in a very MIT-ish way. (That I am not at all sure *generalizes* - that is an atypical population - but their points are worth considering elsewhere.)

ajaxsinger.bsky.social•421 days ago

While this is true, it's incomplete. Ignoring the on-the-ground reality of the SAT and ACT which now includes test-coaches, tutors, and prep-courses for wealthier kids which are unavailable to those it was designed to help means defending a well-intentioned system which has become abusive.

brendannyhan.bsky.social•421 days ago

you have to think about the alternatives - essays and extracurriculars are extraordinarily inequitable. meanwhile test prep barely works if at all https://slate.com/technology/2019/04/sat-prep-courses-do-they-work-bias.html

ajaxsinger.bsky.social•421 days ago

Absolutely! I've been teaching HS in Watts for decades and we can offer almost nothing that competes with richer schools -- our sports programs and academic/arts ECs struggle to survive -- but I think the SAT Tutor article glosses on a very important point... 1/

ajaxsinger.bsky.social•421 days ago

A strong student in my school takes the SAT and scores a 580E/640M based solely on their native academic abilities -- a huge jump from our school avg of 840 -- but this student is now lost in a forest of wealthier kids w/similar scores who aren't nearly as qualified. 2/

ajaxsinger.bsky.social•421 days ago

This kid isn't necessarily aiming for UCB or UCLA or Harvard, but they should be able to make UCD, UCI, or UCR but the field is more crowded than it should have been. The CA top 10% program helped this a lot, but getting rid of testing has helped even more.

ajaxsinger.bsky.social•421 days ago

While it may be true that SAT scores are good predictors of college success-- as the graph clearly indicates -- but that's likely due to the fact that kids from Title 1 schools who do test well *are* very strong students while wealthier kids w/similar scores *have a lot of support*. 4/

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