Like with most things this is a £££ thing. Devs need cash to keep going mass market replayability is always gonna generate more than the nish story driven alternative
The way people describe replayability in games is just bizarre to me. It's like saying Akira isn't rewatchable because it's not 10 hours long and doesn't change every time you watch it.
yea, it's a strange thing... i think a lot of games are replayable in a "comfort" sense, as in "i am absolutely drained from work and i need something that requires little thinking"... but a favorite movie can definitely be that too
I wonder how much of this switch from story-centered games to roguelikes and multiplayer arena games is just the games industry responding to the same decay in ppl's attention span due to social media that other media industries are also contending with?
I think the issue is how we define a good story. I feel a lot of souls style games (Like Hollow Knight or Nine Sols) have a strong story but they hardly take center stage in the game's focus and require players to piece it together.
When fans describe a game with a "good" story it's not (1/2)
Unusual for them to bring up games like Baldur's Gate 3 or older games like DA, though none of the stories they present take advantage of the medium enough and their strengths could be easily replicated with movies/shows instead. A good game can't work outside of the game format but a story can.
They're not struggling, execs are just stupid and everyone collectively decided the new Dragon Age failed for any number of reasons aside from it not being very good
I'm not even done making my first small game and I believe it truly has to do with time. Crafting an engaging story that's also fun is a lot harder than making systems that are just fun because.
I also think games should be priced by local buying power, but that's a whole different thing.
A nice counterpoint to this is Secret Sleepover Society. They play a lot of story games and read everything and take turns voicing different characters. They are the reason I've been playing Teenage Exocolonist
YouTube has kind of been a blessing and a curse in this case. I have never bought a lot of the story-centric games I love because I've seen them on YouTube, but I certainly buy their merch if it's available. I think that's something to consider.
I don't know that story centric games are failing to get a footing in the market. Story Centric games seem to be doing pretty well from what I can see. There is certaintly a trend of Rouge Likes, Survivor Likes but story focus is still huge and likely going to only go up by a bit post BG3.
i'm definitely just going off hearsay! but the most common marketing advice i hear for game devs today is "make a game that streamers will play for hours and hours and hours"
i think BG3 works there because it's a 100+ hour game that still has a lot of replayability, compared to, like, a 5 hour VN
I mean VNs struggle cuz the market is sooo over saturated. On steam alone we're getting near 200 releases a month. Like even if you make a stand out anazing visual novel experince unless you cultivate an audience well in advance there is zero shot at random finds.
VNs, RPGs, and otherwise less replayable games are definitely still finding footing, but it seems like a much trickier struggle to find a way to get the word out there..! though the industry as a whole is also on the backfoot... it may just be that it's just extremely difficult for all games atm
I do think it's really difficult for any game, it's very hard for bigger studios to figure balance for money and for solo/small teams just making it not balloon to cost of living and burnout.
It's sadly only going to get worse too. Mass layoffs in the US, crashing economies from trade wars, people fleeing countries, cost of living increases.
I think the replayability stuff is a cover up so grown adults don’t have to admit they lack reading comprehension skills and have the attention span of a hamster.
ah, it's hard to say, depends on your taste!! Mouthwashing was just incredible
but it's hard to go wrong with A Night in the Woods and The Uncle Who Works For Nintendo, a personal favorite is Heaven Will Be Mine, and I've been excited to try Of The Devil, which comes out tomorrow..!!
Check out Tales of Maj'Eyal 4, particularly the interactions between Rolf and Weissman. In this very traditional roguelike, you find a few letters that pass between them at the beginning of the game, then a few more at the beginning of the late game, and you can find the conclusion in a dungeon.
Absolutely fantastic writing, still resonates with me years later. That, plus the stories and poems in The Master's tower, and some of the writing in the DLC campaign... everything that the PC isn't personally involved with is excellently written.
I'm not entirely sure about the validity of that statement, it's true that action heavy games (apex,lol etc) will have a higher profit and playercount but in almost every other metric story-centric games reign supreme (bg3,Witcher 3,rdr3) they just don't have the same longevity since stories end.
I find hope in the fact that many of the most successful and highly praised releases of the last few years have been story-centric games. Cyberpunk, Baldur's Gate, Metaphor, etc
this isn't really new news, and obviously there are plenty of exceptions, but it does make me a touch sad. i love both sides of the coin quite a lot, but it seems like one side sees quite a lot more attention and success
I wish more people took some time to enjoy stories too. I remember reading an article a while ago where there was a study done on players skipping all dialog 50% of the time, so it really does seem like a perfect coin in terms of gameplay and story.
jeez!! i genuinely wonder if those game developers are aware that's the case, and if they do know... i wonder if they ever consider not bothering with dialogue at all?
but, i hope the "skip dialogue" mentality isn't the case with games that are clearly story focused, like an RPG or VN...
I want to say sadly it is, but I don't have hard numbers to point to, only anecdotes where I've surveyed people and asked how much dialog they skip in narrative-focused games.
my guess is this is due to the popularity of streamers these days and how much they drive the success of games. story focused games don't work as well for streaming.
i don't have any solution, mind you... it's both a design issue and a marketing issue.
even if i made a roguelike, i think i would end up sacrificing a lot of "infinite" replayability for the sake of character and narrative. the moments i cherish most in the games i love are rarely repeatable...
For sure want this to exist, would write for any Yuri Rougelike. Not in my plans to make one myself but idk I am only learning the basics of actually making a video game to make an SRPG.
There’s a few reasons for this unfortunately, one of which is just how expensive games are now. People want value for their dollar, and if people spend 1000’s of hours on one game and 40 hours on another, it’s hard to justify them at the same price, even when it’s a great game
However, replayability can still have story narrative, Hades is one example of how this can be done, or vice versa, Nier automata is an example of replayability built into a story driven experience, undertale as well finds a balance between the two
More that it’s hyper-focused on multiplayer under pretext of replayability, but really all they’re after is competition that will drive up micro-transaction spending.
I feel like RDR2 has a really nice balance, but it's a AAA game and a story-centric indie game with the same or similar features wouldn't find it's niche bc it'd be hard to find that game in the current landscape
It's interesting how stuff maybe circled back on the hours per dollar type discourse where people want "value" from a purchase.
But also I imagine roguelikes have some different development level compared to making and balancing linear encounters.
there's certainly a lot of scope advantages that roguelikes have, in not having to hand-craft every element...
but i think the handcrafted parts of almost always the ones i remember the most, either really specific challenges or incredible story & aesthetic moments
Exactly. Like I don't remember any one fight I had in Hades. But having just played Devil May Cry for the first time, I can still picture some of those encounters in various rooms.
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I want to make games like that!
Are they selling poorly? Do you mean execs don't greenlight them with the same frequency?
When fans describe a game with a "good" story it's not (1/2)
I also think games should be priced by local buying power, but that's a whole different thing.
And then complain they don't know where they are going or what they are supposed to be doing, confirms this.
Even the visual cues like colors. Most people complain about it but then trying to speedrun on their first try they get lost.
Replaying is nice and all, but I like it when the game itself is a way to experience a story.
i think BG3 works there because it's a 100+ hour game that still has a lot of replayability, compared to, like, a 5 hour VN
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1wwB6ez2RlqhZx1jm1XpXFraPYY8k_qDrV1dG0TQ8lv8/htmlview#gid=0
fortnite has no story... but all gacha games have extensive stories.
balatro was successful with its replayability.... but mouthwashing was successful too, and is purely story.
then you have fear & hunger or signalis that have story & gameplay.
Following a story arc takes hours, "reload - corner - shoot - loot - repeat" takes 8 seconds.
but it's hard to go wrong with A Night in the Woods and The Uncle Who Works For Nintendo, a personal favorite is Heaven Will Be Mine, and I've been excited to try Of The Devil, which comes out tomorrow..!!
It’s better to just write a movie script at that point
Doesn’t change the fact that they are amazing stories, nor does it change the fact that most people watch them largely for the story.
but, i hope the "skip dialogue" mentality isn't the case with games that are clearly story focused, like an RPG or VN...
even if i made a roguelike, i think i would end up sacrificing a lot of "infinite" replayability for the sake of character and narrative. the moments i cherish most in the games i love are rarely repeatable...
But also I imagine roguelikes have some different development level compared to making and balancing linear encounters.
but i think the handcrafted parts of almost always the ones i remember the most, either really specific challenges or incredible story & aesthetic moments