The more I use Persistence, the more I'm baffled by how much the very design of Persistence is an obstacle to actually creating things in the world that remembers its state. There is no way in hell the VRChat development team members who were also world creators hadn't come to the same conclusion. - ThreadSky

just.hai-vr.dev • 17 days ago

The more I use Persistence, the more I'm baffled by how much the very design of Persistence is an obstacle to actually creating things in the world that remembers its state.

There is no way in hell the VRChat development team members who were also world creators hadn't come to the same conclusion.

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nidonocu.com•17 days ago

What sort of things are you trying to use it for? I found it very straightforward to create saved world preferences with it.

just.hai-vr.dev•17 days ago

The biggest issue is when a creation involves "large amounts of data that doesn't change coexisting with small amounts of data that gets added fast".
Example, a world that continuously remembers what people draw together in it: New lines are added fast, but most of the existing lines don't change.

just.hai-vr.dev•17 days ago

When done naively, the larger the drawing gets, the slower it becomes to add one more line to the drawing. Without persistence, this is a non-issue (just submit the new line), but with persistence, there is no way to dissociate how data is saved from how existing data is transmitted to other users.

nidonocu.com•17 days ago

It sort of comes to mind that maybe you'd want to keep the active state and 'saved' state as two different things. Doing periodic compressed saves to persistence rather than saving after every change.

just.hai-vr.dev•17 days ago

Hence why I said the design of Persistence is an obstacle. Another solution is to build an abstraction of the storage over persistence that keeps old data split across a pool of POs, and a "circular buffer" of POs for new data.

If there was no replication, then this wouldn't have been needed at all

just.hai-vr.dev•17 days ago

Also Persistence doesn't have a concept of loading or saving things pertaining to one specific member of the instance e.g. instance creator. Everyone's data gets loaded, so everyone will "load" everyone else's drawings, even if only those of the instance creator will be used.

just.hai-vr.dev•17 days ago

Most of these issues above would likely not happen if there was a way to save data without paying the cost that would be incurred from sending it to other users, which is a cost that both PlayerObjects and PlayerData currently have (and PlayerData has its own baffling flaws).

just.hai-vr.dev•17 days ago

Another example is, I tried to make a fun PlayerObject that remembers the name of everyone you met in all instances you've been in. This has the same issue: If you have met a lot of people, then that single PlayerObject will have a network impact every time a player you haven't met joins.

n3x15.bsky.social•17 days ago

Any thoughts on CVR's Storage SDK? https://documentation.abinteractive.net/cck/lua/api/storage/

just.hai-vr.dev•16 days ago

Congratulations you just made two local KV stores

n3x15.bsky.social•16 days ago

Yes, as that was what our users asked for.

just.hai-vr.dev•16 days ago

Before VRChat Persistence released, I was like "I hope this supports cross-world data sharing", and after using Persistence, I am like "They could have made a non-replicated KV store and it would have been more usable"

VRChat's boggling design choices really makes me content for the simplest things

ericbazinga.bsky.social•4 days ago

I remember talking to a friend about how you could add variables but not delete them. Like if you had three values and removed one, the other two got corrupted.

The best way to use persistence (imo) is using a string loading system like before, and then just have persistence save that string

ericbazinga.bsky.social•4 days ago

(to clarify: the friend was telling me this, I'm unfamiliar with persistence or u# in general, I'm stupid lmao)

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