Trump has taken sides for us. The simplicity is not in the mind of the 'unserious' observer, but forced on us by what Trump has done and said. He no longer represents the 'side' Starmer has in mind as our ally. - ThreadSky

t0nyyates.bsky.social • 5 hours ago

Trump has taken sides for us. The simplicity is not in the mind of the 'unserious' observer, but forced on us by what Trump has done and said. He no longer represents the 'side' Starmer has in mind as our ally.

Reposted from Josh Self

Keir Starmer in the commons:

“We will never choose between either side of the Atlantic. If anything, the past week has shown that that idea is totally unserious.

“Because while some people may enjoy the simplicity of taking a side, this week has shown with total clarity that the US is vital...”

Comments

thatmarkelliott.bsky.social•1 hour ago

A more generous take: Starmer knows this, but is saying these things for the ears of the US to at least try to slow down their withdrawal of support, on the basis that as long as Europe moves ahead with support on the basis that the US are pulling out, it has no -ve, and possibly some +ve, impact.

thatmarkelliott.bsky.social•1 hour ago

And that this "nothing to lose, possibly something to gain" strategy is something agreed by Starmer with key allies like Macron, who know Starmer may be best placed to play this role and are aware that it's not really looking both ways at once. I suspect - or at least hope - that's what's happening.

thatmarkelliott.bsky.social•48 minutes ago

[I'm not necessarily saying it's right to be more generous - I may be being over-generous - but just that there may be hard-headed discussions and decisions being made behind the scenes among European allies while the public noises towards the US are necessarily different.]

domwalsh1973.bsky.social•4 hours ago

True, but Starmer is right not to say that publicly at this point.

colinelves.bsky.social•4 hours ago

After months of whinging I’m slowly coming round to the idea that Starmer probably remains better at politics than most (including me) give him credit for - he just moves reeeaaalllyyyy fucking slowly and cautiously on everything.

laikax.bsky.social•3 hours ago

Can you imagine the resolve required to play nice with a person you’d have happily and successfully prosecuted AND imprisoned who the septic tanks decided was fit to be president? i cant, i’d have kneed felonyrump in the plums repeatedly by now if i was in his shoes!

colinelves.bsky.social•4 hours ago

He keeps reminding me of Angela Merkel: boring, slow but forever firmly in the centre of political opinion - if only because he waits to see where the centre is then moves there.

But not beyond doing something radical if his principles direct him that way.

colinelves.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Obviously I hate it. Everyone politics obsessed to be on Bluesky hates it, the lobby seem to hate it, but I suspect the normies will slowly internalise a grudging respect for his leadership that will make a Starmer government hard to dislodge.

colinelves.bsky.social•4 hours ago

I figure this means a slow creep towards higher taxes, more government spending and closer ties to the EU - all the sensible things.

Too slow to avoid minimising the economic damage in each case, but maybe the “don’t spook the horses” attitude to voters is the most politically effective strategy 🤷‍♂️

colinelves.bsky.social•4 hours ago

I think the Trump-Ukraine debacle creates political room to do some things quicker but I bet cautious-Kier still won’t move that much faster on anything.

ianrobo.bsky.social•5 hours ago

just trying to soft talk Trump to try and maintain something Tony ? I get it and actions are stronger anyway and clear which side we took

kristoferfoster.com•5 hours ago

Yep, couldn’t be clearer where Starmer stands re:Zelenskyy/Trump but the PM must be seen to be seen to be doing all he can to keep the aid flowing.

He needs to buy EU time, all the political will to rearm won’t mean much if the rug gets pulled tomorrow and the Ukrainians run out of ammo by spring.

ianrobo.bsky.social•5 hours ago

yep but reports talks in DC today to stop all UKR aims ...

polkapiquee.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Am I wrong to see this as simply "of course we will never [totally] sever ties with the USA" while we smile politely and back off?

laikax.bsky.social•3 hours ago

softly softly detachy felony…

kentindell.bsky.social•4 hours ago

The art of saying “nice doggie!” while you look for a rock.

groverxv.bsky.social•4 hours ago

This speech is exactly the Kevin Bridges "You Have a Good Night Pal" sketch

kentindell.bsky.social•4 hours ago

You’ll have to send me a link to that: I don’t recall it.

groverxv.bsky.social•3 hours ago

https://youtu.be/SlaWolAXlXw?feature=shared

kentindell.bsky.social•3 hours ago

Brilliant. Although Then Kev had *no idea* what PTSD Today's Kev experiences when watching the news.

bickerrecord.bsky.social•5 hours ago

Perhaps, but there may be sense in keeping up the pretence for a while, at least for Russian eyes, that the US can be brought back to the correct side, while European countriies scramble on procurement and logistics.

nicolekidmansnose.bsky.social•5 hours ago

I am still staggered by the ability of European politicians to delude themselves regarding Trump/Vance/GOP in 2025. These Americans actively mean us harm.

davelauchlan.bsky.social•4 hours ago

I'm trying to see it as sweet talking Trump to buy us time whilst we reduce our dependency on the US as much as possible. But I agree with what you've said.

referencehs.bsky.social•2 hours ago

To still attempt to talk some sense into Trump is completely useless: he is bought and paid for by Putin. Just go with the hard truth: the US is not for us, but against us now. Against decency, against science, against humanity, against democracy, against justice.

simonbm.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Quite right. Trump is forcing rearmament and independence on Europe. Once that is done, we’re not even going to be discussing the US very much.

nerdlegend.bsky.social•3 hours ago

It about giving UK and Europe time. Delay due not being prepared, like Soviets in 1940s. We have loads to do. But of course he should be dropping his tax promise and moving closer to Europe. I suspect being the outsider here helps with dealing with trump short term. Gravity is pulling towards Europe

t0nyyates.bsky.social•5 hours ago

Starmer is squandering a time to explain the seriousness of the moment, and why how we will respond to it is worth the pain. This was of course the moment to drop the election tax promises and reopen the question of EU membership.

d-moore.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Is there a part of you that thinks Starmer knows full well what Trump is up to (doesn't really need Poirot to see where his priorities lie 🇷🇺) & is throwing him a few pacifiers to buy Europe some time?
King included.

d-moore.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Pointing the finger & shouting traitor while Europe doesn't have its ducks in a row would be risky, at best.

t0nyyates.bsky.social•4 hours ago

It's possible; but this has a cost, and the cost is obscuring the situation from the public here and elsewhere in Europe.

t0nyyates.bsky.social•5 hours ago

Trump and Musk are actively sabotaging the US state, failing to protect its own citizens abroad, blackmailing our allies with tariffs and military threats. It's frankly misinformation and very poorly serving the public to fail to help them understand the situation.

pwnallthethings.bsky.social•5 hours ago

I think reopening EU membership discussions is a mistake; it's impractical and politically toxic in both the UK and EU. But you can do something less than that such as opening discussions on an extra-EU joint defense agreement or pseudo-institution

thatmarkelliott.bsky.social•5 hours ago

The political toxicity of rejoining the EU (within the UK) is almost entirely an artefact of the FPTP voting system - there’s a strong, stable majority for rejoining, but the pro-Brexit vote is very efficiently spread, esp. in quite a few marginal seats. No FPTP, no (well, not quite no 😂) problem.

pwnallthethings.bsky.social•5 hours ago

doing tries to paper over the fact that the UK has left somewhat, and is its own can of worms, but it gives you better options if you want to rejoin down the line without trying to eat the whole cake all at once

pwnallthethings.bsky.social•5 hours ago

But trying to buy back in to a joint defense group of some variety that helps manage and distribute how to build and invest in defense without excessive duplication across the continent, and perhaps working out how to get back in on EU space agency stuff would be a smart hedge

valoisdubins.bsky.social•5 hours ago

Language such as “while we’re not going to reverse Brexit, we do need to ”

t0nyyates.bsky.social•5 hours ago

It's academic, because of course they won't do it, it's such a deep part of the raison d'etre of the current Labour leadership now. But opinion has turned sharply against Brexit. This crisis provides the opportunity. And also the 4% of GDP we throw away in trade friction is much more needed now.

pwnallthethings.bsky.social•5 hours ago

Sure, but it's not just a function of polling. Brexit was a disaster not just in effect, but in how toxic the *process* of it was. I struggle to see the EU being enthusiastic about managing a reversal while all the other crises are happening. But better ties less-than-membership seem more practical

t0nyyates.bsky.social•5 hours ago

Oh yes, it takes two to Rejoin. But they also need us more now than before, so it's also an opportunity for both sides. Joint defence procurement is the absolute minimum required, but throwing resources in the sea with those trade frictions makes the production more expensive than it needs to be.

t0nyyates.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Also, the Labour strategy of peeling off the Brexity voters and holding that coalition is not working [viz the polling catastrophe]. It needs to do something bold or lose power with a whimper [and coincidentally all this is actually in the national interest].

oliverturner.cloud•4 hours ago

The “red lines” on engagement with the EU were what made me vote Lib Dem for the first time ever in 2024

t0nyyates.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Connect the tax promise abandonment and EU pivot with the defence imperative and you both give a good explanation to the socially conservative patriots, and you energise the socially liberal former Remainers.

t0nyyates.bsky.social•4 hours ago

The imperative is similar for the UK and Ukraine. Somewhat less of course. If we see off Russia and the situation normalises or we become habituated to it, the window for reopening the EU discussion goes away and the terms of the debate return to their pre crisis terms.

t0nyyates.bsky.social•4 hours ago

The strategy is as it is partly because Labour's team have the illusion that they can industrial policy and AI themselves out of the resource constraints. These things will return us to growth again [they won't] and transform the cost of public services [they won't].

t0nyyates.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Instead Starmer is perpetuating the myth that Trump is actually still an ally we can work with. And efforts to construct mini deals over technology - one of the vectors for social poison and security vulnerability in the UK.

oldtrotter.bsky.social•4 hours ago

There’s no point in needlessly alienating Trump (the request for a security backstop shows that Europe can’t yet defend itself). But he should also be using the opportunity to reset the terms of the tax and spend debate, rather than continue the planning and industrial policy fairytale…..

hehisself.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Held at bay as long as we outgun Russia is the future.

hehisself.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Russia isn't going to stop.
Seen off is ambitious.

t0nyyates.bsky.social•3 hours ago

Seen a few prominent people comment 'but we have lots of ties as a result of decades of collaboration and procurement'. Tough shit! You can't make Trump reliable by pointing that out; nor will pointing it out make him not a fascist who is menacing our allies.

mh8748.bsky.social•3 hours ago

Stating that Trump is an enemy will crystallise the position - potentially immediately

Keeping things ambiguous for as long as possible is the sensible game

Hopefully (like a divorce), we're frantically squirreling away the best silverware before the inevitable comes

benbarclay.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Good thread, but I think the caveat is that it's quite possible what Starmer thinks and is doing in private is different from what he is saying in public.

Even if Starmer is fully convinced that the US under Trump is an unreliable ally or worse, he probably doesn't think it's the time to say that.

jasonoflondon.bsky.social•4 hours ago

I would say it is a necessary myth: we cannot simply extricate ourselves from US security architecture unfortunately. Trump should clearly not be regarded as an ally, but there is equally no need to antagonise him, who know what he might do?

Also think still not the right time to talk about Rejoin.

williamcb.bsky.social•4 hours ago

This is right. But it’s all in the timing.

dreyer.ch•4 hours ago

Agreed with @t0nyyates.bsky.social analysis AND your timing point. Starmer is still trying to keep the bridge intact although it‘s on fire. I wonder at what stage he‘ll actually admit it to be burning.

andyinafield.bsky.social•5 hours ago

Not to mention the massive political interference in this country and others. I'd like to think he's spouting this crap to buy time. Sadly I think he believes it.

fieldbean.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Presuming we strongly and practically back Ukraine then Trump will choose

cristiv.bsky.social•2 hours ago

not Trump, USA people's - he won elections. just like it is not Putin but Russia - except Russians can't be bothered with elections.

hawksland.bsky.social•1 hour ago

Presumably UK & Europeans keep talking the talk about "friend, ally, special relationship, yak yak" to keep Trump calm and sort of onside. In private, surely they must call Trump all the vile names they can lay their tongue to. I hope so.

grahamrb32.bsky.social•4 hours ago

I agree, but we need time and he is right to let it play out so that he can demonstrate he(we) did all he could to engage. Others (Mertz) are taking a stronger tone, and I think this is strategic. There will be a time soon when the inevitable single choice will be clear, sadly.

philsbodydouble.bsky.social•1 hour ago

I am worried Starmer's unwillingness to admit the truth about Trump is going to dwarf the damage Starmer's unwillingness to admit the truth about Brexit is doing to the UK.

sconeone.bsky.social•4 hours ago

climatenews.bsky.social•5 hours ago

And the same applies to the climate - US climate policy is actively endangering the UK and Europe (and the rest of the world).

davehaterofracism.bsky.social•4 hours ago

AND Starmer , like his copying of the USA cutting international aid is also cutting our commitment to fighting climate change.

climatenews.bsky.social•4 hours ago

Indeed - as @georgemonbiot.bsky.social has written, the Labour government under Starmer has been problematic on climate change policy, to say the least.

punshhh.bsky.social•5 hours ago

This crisis requires focus. His focus must be at the least to preserve U.S. aid for Ukraine until European forces are prepared to take over. Von der leyen said in terms that Europe must and will re-arm last night.

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