1/ … Native EN/Near-Native DE speaker here: I dislike both. Neither captures what's going on very well. "Schönheit," "Schustern" & "Schneidern" is alliteration that's missing in both EN versions. "Cobbler" can be confused with a type of cake. And "elegance" is not simply beauty. There's … - ThreadSky

pwinslow.bsky.social • 10 days ago

1/ … Native EN/Near-Native DE speaker here: I dislike both. Neither captures what's going on very well. "Schönheit," "Schustern" & "Schneidern" is alliteration that's missing in both EN versions. "Cobbler" can be confused with a type of cake. And "elegance" is not simply beauty. There's …

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pwinslow.bsky.social•10 days ago

2/ … also a whole cultural critique in beauty's association with practical things and in the search for truth's being (1) non-practical – it's not always efficient and its utility is not always given or immediately clear – and (2) by extension possibly ugly. In other words, there is …

pwinslow.bsky.social•10 days ago

3/3 a whole line of reasoning (modus tollens) that is captured in neither translation. The quote is an example of the kind of thing it is trying to expound.

maryefreeman.bsky.social•9 days ago

So to retain the alliteration, and poetry, it would need rephrasing?

For example: "Beauty, gentlemen, we will waive to Beauticians and Beyoncé. Our goal, in Research, must remain the Truth"

pwinslow.bsky.social•9 days ago

Exactly. I tried my hand at a translation yesterday:

"Beauty, Gentlemen, is for bow ties and britches. In research, we must aspire to truth."

maryefreeman.bsky.social•9 days ago

Aspire or aim for or goal ? They have slightly different connotations of level of commitment.

maryefreeman.bsky.social•9 days ago

Remain is a "must" rather than a "should" too, if that is the literal translation?

lynnnothegger.bsky.social•9 days ago

It’s really difficult to come up with alliteration that works so well. I like the word ‘eloquence’ instead of beauty, but am stuck on professions beginning with E. Maybe ‘Style’?

pwinslow.bsky.social•9 days ago

1/ That is the challenge here, isn't it. I think beauty is needed to maintain the truth/beauty dichotomy invoked in the DE. But I'd also be curious to see versions with style or eloquence. I don't think professions are important. Objects work just as well. And with eloquence, you could really play

lynnnothegger.bsky.social•10 days ago

Ah, that's a really interesting point. Takes me down an entirely different rabbit hole. Thank you!

pwinslow.bsky.social•10 days ago

The ugly truth idea would also explain why the 2nd sentence contains the word "Forschungsziel." It conflicts – it's harsh by comparison and has 3 syllables instead of 2 – put differently,, it conflicts with everything in the 1st sentence.

lynnnothegger.bsky.social•10 days ago

You’ve inspired me to dig out my Mark Forsyth book on rhetoric. Must reread it.

pwinslow.bsky.social•10 days ago

Rhetoric is a hobby of mine.

By the way, I tried my hand at translating the quote & sent it to you via DM here at Bluesky.

lynnnothegger.bsky.social•10 days ago

Neither are my translations, btw. I found the second one as the 'official' translation in a book, and was intrigued that it had been truncated and made into more of a snappy slogan. Good point re the alliteration.

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