We can't afford to spend 4 years in a defensive crouch, pulling a Principle Skinner (No, it's the children who are wrong!). The kids didn't get this way by themselves. If we can't figure out how to counter that received messaging, we're toast.
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You're so right, we can't just yell at these kids and tell them they're wrong. Pithy clapbacks won't win the day.
They're kids. They will emulate behavior that affirms them and engage with people who make them feel like they belong. We can't cede that space to the manosphere.
At the same time, you can't work out how counter it without acknowledging that, like much of Lee's post, it's bad faith bullshit. Nobody was going around telling 11-year-olds they were rapists, in 2018 or now.
Anecdotally, I do remember pretty recently (~2019), women (many of them liberal) advocating on social media for sterilizing prepubescent children with penises as a rape/pregnancy deterrent. Sure, maybe just reactive rhetoric against patriarchal anti-choice BS, but unsettling nonetheless.
The way to counter this messaging is to make fun of manosphere talking points and expose what clowns they are. The manosphere is only successful because it has successfully convinced young men that they’re cool guys
And to be clear, this is not about engaging Fang or other right wing bad faith actors as individuals. Nobody (I hope) was telling 11 yr old boys that they were rapists by nature. Nevertheless, that seems to be the message that an awful lot of men under 30 received, if exit polls are to be believed.
Yes, that's my point. Feminism has not been sending this message. Rather, red-pillers and manosphere spokesmen have been poisoning the discourse, convincing gullible and insecure men to misinterpret it.
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I believe it's a confluence of things: white men - especially young white men - *are* fragile, in the sense that they've never had to face any kind of criticism before, and the right-wing manosphere ruthlessly exploited that.
I can't speak to the messages boys have been getting in the last 10 yrs, but I do know that growing up in Christian purity culture ~20 yrs ago, the message we all got was "girls have to dress modestly because boys can't control themselves"
A frame that might help (and certainly has helped me):
Patriarchy, not feminism, is what tells men their nature is violent, and abusive, and supremacist. Patriarchy, not feminism, is what tells men they can’t be anything but an asshole. Patriarchy, not feminism, is what keeps men in chains.
Even speaking as a Brit myself, he's a great example. That dude seems happy as shit, has a great family, good life, is loved by the people around him and almost got to have one of the top jobs in the world. I can't imagine anyone being unhappy if they end up with a life like his.
I suspect the message comes from the many right-wingers who tell them prosecuting rape is an attack on men. And that if they even ask a woman out, they'll be arrested as a harasser.
Yes reading a lot of news articles shows how there is a lot of bad information out there. There needs to be more grassroots effort to be done to talk to more people.
I’d like to start a conversation- I think that there’s a vast amount of media out there, and every tween consumes a lot of it. So what characters, celebrities, and tropes were and are out there that provide role models for tween and teen boys and young men, that point toward moral success?
I question if that even matters, truth be told. Alt right grifters have very famously misread the matrix, and they do the same with any other movie. most recently they're judging by vibes more than texts. how do you reach out with a fictional story to someone who can only read it by association?
I was inspired by https://gwillow.me’s comments “If we can't figure out how to counter that received messaging, we're toast.” and “…that seems to be the message that an awful lot of men under 30 received,….”
We can (and do!) counterbalance those messages, and there’re role models to refer to.
Most superheroes are still super-heroic. (Black Panther is a great one.) Sam Gamgee (and some of his supporting characters.) Ted Lasso (and friends), but that’s very recent.
Honestly, a few years ago I would’ve said Neil Gaiman, but that seems like a miss now. Keanu Reeves, The Rock, Ryan Reynolds?
Oh I could not disagree more...the reaction to Fang is b/c THE MEDIA THOSE BOYS CONSUMED was telling them that people (liberals, women) were saying they are rapists by nature. That's what Fang is doing in that post, and it suck and should be called out
there's an axiom that's told to men: the women in your life see how you act, and they are reacting to it.
Just going to point out here... the reverse is true. it's easy to go on youtube and find a LOT of videos of young women behaving really badly towards young men... 1/2
but the only people who acknowledge that part of reality exist in the manosphere.
The KIDS, all of them, have real problems with respect and boundaries. And I think that social media/internet culture is far more involved in that than anyone finds comfortable.
Well, people were telling *me* that back when I was on FB as a not-very-emotionally-mature late teen, in groups that definitely had younger teens in them. Maybe they didn't mean it that way, but hey - that's what "impact, not intent" was all about, right?
It’s true that there were a few loud, mostly fringe voices back on Twitter and elsewhere who helped make it easy for the right to sell this caricature. Language matters. But at the same time …
… we have to bear in mind who did the caricaturing, and we can’t let them suppress truths just because they don’t like them. (And I’m not saying you think that.)
yeah, I relentless curate my watch history but if I watch an otherwise innocent video relating to certain kinds of game or if I was to watch a clip from/trailer for certain movies (Tarantino as a notable example) then it's highly likely to get me right wing misogyny vids rec'd shortly after
It was brewing a long time ago. I had middle school students in 2012-13 who were scary misogynist and racist. Some of that was social media but there was a heavy dose of cable TV (not streaming then) also involved.
It doesn't help that they have brainwashing machines in their pockets powered by algorithms that go from "Minecraft Playthrough" all the way to "N*zi Propaganda" in a few clicks.
The problem is that the social media algorithms are geared towards generating maximum emotion—anger—so it’s more profitable to provide an endless loop or rage bait to keep boys engaged on the platform. I don’t know how to fix that
If you are an uncle or cousin to younger males the time is now to be the cool relative and lead them down the right path. Which is something I need to work on with my nephews.
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They're kids. They will emulate behavior that affirms them and engage with people who make them feel like they belong. We can't cede that space to the manosphere.
Having been watching the proto-manosphere since the 1980s (Fathers' Rights and Katie Roiphe, et al), it's not "feminism" preaching that shit.
It's the Masculists, and their fellow travellers, who say "Men are like that" and decry anything which says otherwise.
Patriarchy, not feminism, is what tells men their nature is violent, and abusive, and supremacist. Patriarchy, not feminism, is what tells men they can’t be anything but an asshole. Patriarchy, not feminism, is what keeps men in chains.
Too much stick, not enough carrot.
"Don't be a jerk, AND also here's why being decent will make you feel good too".
The only voices telling boys they're good are Rogan/Tate.
We can (and do!) counterbalance those messages, and there’re role models to refer to.
Honestly, a few years ago I would’ve said Neil Gaiman, but that seems like a miss now. Keanu Reeves, The Rock, Ryan Reynolds?
Just going to point out here... the reverse is true. it's easy to go on youtube and find a LOT of videos of young women behaving really badly towards young men... 1/2
The KIDS, all of them, have real problems with respect and boundaries. And I think that social media/internet culture is far more involved in that than anyone finds comfortable.
If young people are voting for trump it is just because they’re stupid. It is not more complicated than that beyond maybe some are ill or evil.
There needs to be laws regulating algorithms.
"Fascists offer a fake enemy. We have to offer a real one."