I don't think the United States survives this in its current form. Part of me hopes there's balkanization so that the northeast can build a modern parliamentary democracy with human rights in its charter. So many possibilities open up.
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the worst part is there's absolutely zero telling what could happen and when. the best and worst case scenarios are both equally plausible. balkanization wouldnt even be a good thing either. look at how many people died in eastern europe in the 90s. when the ussr and yugoslavia disintegrated
There was a book a few years ago which pointed out that societies in which there are more suicides and fewer homocides are more successful according to a range of social factors. In a similar way, rather than attacking its neighbours and rivals, it would be better if the US went to war with itself.
This is what needs to happen. The US has too much collective power for its own good, to say nothing of its impact on the rest of the world. I truly believe that the generations that come after would be better off.
I want balkanization too for the West, but the way Newsom has been buddying up to the right even more than usual shatters my dreams of California as an independent nation, or part of a separate one.
Not sure, but, I read an article recently talking about how he is starting a podcast & wants folks from the right to be on it, so perhaps that. It seems very "wait, I could be the Dem Joe Rogan!" of him, and tbh, my opinion is that this is the time to do so, ya know?
What in the actual creepy-ass-alien-insect-in-a-human-suit fuck is this? Newsome had that John Edwards vibe that I really liked. As sad as that was, Edwards only fucked around on his wife while she was dying. He didn't do photo ops with claymation Nazi Butt-head.
There are a few efforts there. As far as I can tell the New England folks are furthest along... but I suspect the New Yorkers will make up for lost time soon...
I don't know if balkanization is the answer, since it will lead to untold suffering. But I am certain that the US won't survive in its current form. Even if, miraculously, no more damage is done and the Dems take control in 2029, they MUST fix the system that allowed all this in the first place.
The thing is I don't think we can save conservative voters if America survives we need to identify the problem & stop listening to people with terrible judgment. 🤷♂️ We need to craft our slice of heaven & let people choose how they wanna live.
As someone who’s family went through “balkanization”, in former Yugoslavia. The fact you even hope for this in the US is disgustingly. So many innocent people died while nationalists exploited it for their own goals.
In the process schools were bombed, communities that lived in the region for 1/?
for hundreds of years were pushed out. The worst case scenario was the genocide in Bosnia, where people were being systematically murdered in concentration camp environments, and shot on mass.
Your rhetoric here reminds me of the Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin, North Macedonian 2/?
Is there a reason you did not mention Slovenian or Bosnian nationalists? Why selectively go through singing out four? And to your point, the separation of states need not be violent.
I don’t get why some people think a utopia will rise from the ashes of the dumpster fire that is current America. I get why you would want it to fall apart, but talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. We only need to look at history to see why this is not a fantasy but a nightmare.
The OP is generally understood to be the person who starts a thread, not whoever in that thread you are replying to. And we're talking about a hypothetical situation in which the US becomes balkanized. So no, I don't think the current balkanization of America is currently killing people.
Tbf the USA is already divided into 50 separate states, each with its own government. It wouldn’t need a full balkanisation process to dissolve the union and divide the federal assets up between the states. Of course, you’d need to give your nukes to Canada and Europe for safekeeping first.
I understand the idea here but Colorado is one of the bluest states in the country despite being in the middle of it. I live where I live specifically because of LGBT rights and abortion protections. Cruelty doesn't begin to describe how it feels to be abandoned to the magas.
True but then you'd also get a giant redstateistan with abysmal human rights and no democracy. What happens to the people living there? What do we do with such a country? Will there be a North American cold war of sorts?
I still have hope, but only because I believe that
1. Trump’s dementia will worsen
2. Elon Musk’s drug use will worsen
3. JD Vance is so unlikeable that the coalition of retribution will fracture
I don't want the pain, but maybe a balkanization is necessary. Hoping Canada is willing to absorb MI if that happens. I could see a Northeast Country, a west coast country, and Canada absorbing the border states that don't fit in either of those.
I say this with all due respect, and I sympathize with the anxiety, but this is dismissive of the work that leftists do in red states - it’s people who are left/right, not the land. I understand self preservation, but not to the extent of “Balkanizing” comrades bc of the state they live in.
With that said, the northeast is not the liberal utopia most people think it is lol. The amount of confederate flags I saw living in New Hampshire was way too many considering I’m from Texas.
Unfortunately, the far right would likely *want* left-leaning areas to split off so Trump's Washington could have license to bomb us, destroy us, and "settle" us.
Like the Civil War, but with the Confederates running DC.
I'm particularly predicting that some of the states will secede and join up with Canada/Mexico out of economic desperation or to just not be under the boot of moron dictators.
Isn't that the goal of Thiel et al? They want to break the US up so each billionaire can have their own kingdom. I'm not confident that we'd gain control just bc we balkanize.
States (in the broader sense) aren't actually real. They're just an idea people invented. And because of that, these people can say that their Lords of a kingdom—I could say that—But that doesn't mean anything if no one goes along with it.
And if we break up on our terms, they'll be shut out.
I feel that, ultimately, money is power in the world. I agree on the fact that borders are man made and that theoretically we can change them and their meaning. But it seems as though a lot of our politicians are captured by capital interests. I don't see how balkanization would change that.
I guess where I do see it could break down is that that is a whole lot of egos at play in small areas vying to be on top (the cover of Patchwork looks like a hotbed mess waiting to happen) the bros think they’re going to have their own state to rule over until neighboring bro takes it for his state.
It would be messy and have worldwide ramifications for decades, centuries even. It would be equivalent to the collapse of Rome. Maybe you're right, and maybe some parts recover faster than others. But it leaves scary questions like: who gets the nukes? I want a better country too, but Balkenization?
I don’t think the US should survive as it is. Part of the problem was to many people wanted to get back to ‘normal’ when Biden got elected. American Apathy is what allowed for this menace to take and retake power.
The future is alarming & unpredictable for sure. IMHO, if it comes to balkanization, that would be the result of economc catastrophe that will have devastating domestic & international consequences.
if balkanization does happen, i gotta get as far north/west as possible. i dont wanna get stuck in west texas when it becomes a full-on christian theocracy
Shit could go in so many directions right now, it's actually insane. Only one thing I'm positive on is that it's about to get a whole lot worse before there's even a chance it gets better
A flag for the Cascadia movement. Mostly been an escapist fantasy but has gained traction since 2016 because of well....everything? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_flag
I just moved from IN to Nevada to try to escape MAGA. I would have said please let NV join the movement but we ever so slightly went for him in the election 😔
Can people as blunt force and unimaginative as the white supremacists and Christofascists driving MAGA successfully implement a fascist regime before being overthrown/otherwise removed from power? 🤷 Blue states have the numbers, access to outside assistance on both coasts, and huge economies.
Collapse is highly unlikely. Unlike how most dictators rise the US is not in a major economic crisis. Sure there are issues, but those are mostly self inflicted. We are more likely to see a revolution like major political shift. This may still get bloody though.
Geographical boundaries will not work in modern times. Needs to be more urban separated from rural. Almost all US cities are more liberal than fascist.
How we do this… I don’t know, but I’m more than ready for it.
Exhausted from rural rightwing propaganda gulpers running this country.
I want to live in a sane nation.
There are so many people in red/purple states who are fighting the good fight, and I’d argue they’re struggling the most. They don’t deserve fascism. I will never hope for a future that involves leaving people behind.
I think we may be heading towards constitutional convention territory, because he’s exposing all the points where the current system isn’t resilient to malign actors. A major systemic overhaul is needed to protect democracy
My dream would be for the west and mountain west to be a green eco-state, but sadly more likely will be constant border skirmishes between costal states and inland inbred militias
Shameful that people like you are so eager to abandon vulnerable Americans held hostage b/c we failed to make Democrats—yes, Dems—do the work when they had the chance.
13% of Biden’s popular votes came from FL and TX.
The problems can be overcome if our officials would just do the f*cking work.
I don't want the US to collapse because Republicans don't deserve to have their own little hellhole fiefdoms where they terrorize anyone unlucky enough to not escape.
I do think the U.S. is too big and decentralized for these people to manage; however, there's no way fascists give up the desirable areas. I doubt they'd even let us carve out a space of our own in, say, one of the Dakotas. Fascists don't want to let you have anything of your own.
In 2017 I wrote a book set in one of four nations created after a post-Trump balkanisation. My agent asked me to rewrite it to be set in a location less emotionally triggering for US readers.
Balkanization would condemn so many good people without the ability and resources to relocate from red states to suffering and death. Balkanization is what Putin wants, because it would weaken us on the 🌍 stage, therefore it’s probably what Trump wants. We fight for everybody. Leave no one behind.
I will not leave behind the people who live as hostages in those gerrymandered voter suppressed GOP states, didn’t vote for this, don’t want it, and don’t deserve to suffer and die because of it any more than we do. 92% of black women voted against this. Many are in red states. I won’t abandon them.
I"m not saying to abandon us, I"m saying I'd rather there be *somewhere* safe than have places that could've been safe havens destroyed in the attempt to hold this awful country together
I'd rather at least my loved ones in less fascist states survive
I’m in California and I hope we can continue to be a sanctuary for everybody who is at risk in other states. I am also committed to a future in which we can all be safe and can thrive wherever we are. I gotta believe it’s possible if we refuse to give up. Stay safe out there ✌️🫶✊
I live in Mississippi and I almost feel like that scene in a movie where everyone is trying to escape and someone gets trapped behind a locked door or something and all that they can do is shout to their companions "GO! SAVE YOURSELVES!"
I lived through a collapse of USSR. Trust me, you don't want that. I get it, you are angry and you think, how bad can it get, but the truth is, it'll be horrific. Not just for the red states, for everyone.
If they're threatening a conquest of Canada, Mexico, and Greenland, why would you imagine they wouldn't attack the blue states if they try to leave? If balkanization happens, it will mean a second civil war if we don't want MAGA tanks rolling into Vermont and Oregon
I read a article some years ago now about which countries might cease to exist in the next 50 years. One was the UK (definite maybe) another was the US - the possibility is now looking extremely possible (another was the USSR - that one is now long gone, so the article may not be all that loony!)
I am really hoping the west coast does this also. My hope is gone in any of those Governors that they'll actually do the right thing. They're bought and paid for also.
As a thought experiment this would be so wonderful for us. We shouldn't be voting on the needs of rural communities and they shouldn't have say in how we live. Also the first trump term already proved we don't need a president to function because he was absent which was somehow preferable to now.
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There is another way.
https://www.newenglandindependence.org/
In the process schools were bombed, communities that lived in the region for 1/?
Your rhetoric here reminds me of the Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin, North Macedonian 2/?
This is a general issue I see with Americans, complete ignorance of other countries histories while bringing it up as an example of their argument.
3/3
1. Trump’s dementia will worsen
2. Elon Musk’s drug use will worsen
3. JD Vance is so unlikeable that the coalition of retribution will fracture
Like the Civil War, but with the Confederates running DC.
People are in deep denial. The world we lived in two months ago no longer exists. War is coming.
Oh lord we’re cooked
And if we break up on our terms, they'll be shut out.
While I'm with you in daydreaming of being free of this mess, a gentle reminder of the literal *genocides* that Balkanization has caused.
We need to get our own house in order.
Empires come and go
one struggle
Exhausted from rural rightwing propaganda gulpers running this country.
I want to live in a sane nation.
13% of Biden’s popular votes came from FL and TX.
The problems can be overcome if our officials would just do the f*cking work.
To quote Morrison: “This is the end..”
The primary economic engines of the country are still pro-Canada and anti-Russia.
Well, I'd rather some people get out of this than none
Also, balkanization reduces the strength of the tin-pot fascists running the red states
I grew up in couch fucker's hometown. I'm glad I'm where I'm at now instead of still back there.
I"m not saying to abandon us, I"m saying I'd rather there be *somewhere* safe than have places that could've been safe havens destroyed in the attempt to hold this awful country together
I'd rather at least my loved ones in less fascist states survive