new @fangraphs.com: Russell Martin's elite pitch-framing puts him on par not only with the more heralded catchers of the era, but among the most valuable players (some actual MVP winners) for the 2006-16 span. The public didn't appreciate him the way the industry did, but he's Hallworthy. - ThreadSky

jayjaffe.bsky.social • 83 days ago

new @fangraphs.com: Russell Martin's elite pitch-framing puts him on par not only with the more heralded catchers of the era, but among the most valuable players (some actual MVP winners) for the 2006-16 span. The public didn't appreciate him the way the industry did, but he's Hallworthy.

Reposted from FanGraphs Baseball

JAWS and the 2025 Hall of Fame Ballot: Russell Martin

Comments

kleindrivehomer.bsky.social•83 days ago

Jay - In 2012 the Yankees lost in the ALCS to the Tigers, not the Rangers as you say in this (that was 2010). You also said "not that Martin was much help in October, hitting .161/.235/.290", which is true, but he did do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FfxRcR6Ick

jayjaffe.bsky.social•83 days ago

braincramp on that 2012 Tigers series (which I covered for SI, and which was quite a downer given the Jeter injury). Fixing...

kleindrivehomer.bsky.social•83 days ago

I was so thrown off on the "reigning champ Yankees" knowing he came in 11 and did that homer in 12. The Yankees did their share of losing to the Tigers in that era so it gets confusing.

fworsley.bsky.social•83 days ago

No way. Overrated. His stats does not support a single HOF vote. His WAR is UNDER 40 when the HOF average is 60. If you let him in, the bar will become very low afterwards.

snowdayfan1.bsky.social•83 days ago

This is gonna blow your mind: there’s more than one WAR out there, and the one you’re choosing is regarded in the stats community as the worst/least accurate

jayjaffe.bsky.social•83 days ago

As somebody who uses both versions, I can tell you that's not the case. Each has pros and cons; it depends on the task. fWAR, which uses FIP for pitching value, isn't the best tool in evaluating pitcher careers esp in low-HR, low-K environments. OTOH, it's excellent for 21st-century catcher value.

kblidook.bsky.social•83 days ago

Except the bar wouldn’t move (there is an important difference between average & minimum)- & even without the framing value that boosts his WAR to “average”, there is a load of folks in the Hall with similar/lower WAR.

ncpadres.bsky.social•83 days ago

this also provides insight into why Austin Hedges has been in MLB so long, and is actually praised despite amazingly bad hitting.

nostaticatall.bsky.social•82 days ago

i love celebrating all the fun things baseball players can do. running, hitting, throwing...lying to umpires. there's nothing like it

dewey4real.bsky.social•83 days ago

Good player, not a HOF player. I do agree catchers are not given enough credit for defense and game management.

bersheeb.bsky.social•83 days ago

Jay - if you genuinely thought Martin was HOF worthy and wanted other fellow voters to potentially vote for him, then why wait until late December to state the case? Even 5% seems like a longshot at this point with no votes thus far.

jayjaffe.bsky.social•83 days ago

You might have noticed that I’ve been rather busy? This is my fourth massive profile of a 1st year candidate in this cycle, and took more back-end work than usual. I’m not a machine, nor am I the only FG writer who wants their work in the spotlight once in awhile.

bersheeb.bsky.social•83 days ago

Fair enough. I know you’re a work horse. Not shitting on you in any way. Glad you take deep dives into every profile. Just bummed that it may be too late for him to get closer examination.

donweng.bsky.social•80 days ago

Pitch framing is fooling the ump. When umpires no longer call strikes, pitch framing won't be discussed.

briangiacobbe.bsky.social•83 days ago

bizguy.bsky.social•83 days ago

What? A .240 hitter with under 200 bombs in the HOF? Insane. And I am a Russ Martin fan.

neilmak.bsky.social•83 days ago

One word - Ozzie...

gallagwar.bsky.social•83 days ago

Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

taejonguy.bsky.social•83 days ago

Obv. didn't read the article.

bizguy.bsky.social•83 days ago

For pitch framing? We should put the grounds keeper in for wetting the grass to save runs. Or maybe the 3rd base coach for most waived in runs per season.

jessespector.com•83 days ago

I ultimately disagree, but will be cherry-picking freely for ammo against Yadier Molina.

lewispoll.is•83 days ago

I am specifically not reading this until after I write my own argument for him but I’m glad to know I’m not totally on an island here!

jayjaffe.bsky.social•83 days ago

but, but... I thought you viewed framing as "cheating"! 😉

lewispoll.is•83 days ago

*galaxy brain* it IS cheating but I don’t disqualify candidates for that

taejonguy.bsky.social•83 days ago

Ya ain't trying if you ain't cheating

- everyone one caught cheating

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