Why is being right-populist/extremist and anti-vax so closely linked? I am wondering about this a long time, because it's all about having children, many of them, and traditional mums and pregnancies and babies and all that. So you should think vaccines would be popular to keep kids alive & healthy - ThreadSky

eckerleisabella.bsky.social • 70 days ago

Why is being right-populist/extremist and anti-vax so closely linked? I am wondering about this a long time, because it's all about having children, many of them, and traditional mums and pregnancies and babies and all that. So you should think vaccines would be popular to keep kids alive & healthy

Comments

schokomint.bsky.social•70 days ago

Das passt, aber ob sie so weit denken? Allein - der Selbstbetrug - sich überlegen zu fühlen reicht vermutlich als Motivation:
https://bsky.app/profile/schokomint.bsky.social/post/3lbwrd6dzps2q

renedorfinger.bsky.social•70 days ago

My two takes:
1. If you give way to science in this aspect, you get exposure in other questions, such as climate change or migration. That would mean loss of decision making power for political institutions/actors as they'd be bound to "follow science." That would lead to transparent decisions and

renedorfinger.bsky.social•70 days ago

consequently, less influence. No one in power relinquishes said power freely.
2. It's what you said. Keep people, mostly wome, in check. I feel my first solution is even more simple and, by way of Occam's Razor, should be true.
Both are (equally) bad for societal structures, though.

iamweary.bsky.social•70 days ago

I think that's part of it for sure. I also think it's getting rid of the "government money suckers" like the elderly, poor, disabled etc. These groups typically have poor health and/or no money for healthcare. Problem solved.

groundloop.bsky.social•70 days ago

Isn't it more like: Anti-vax has been around forever as a subculture. Currently it often aligns with the extreme right, conspiracy theorists, etc. but once it could also align with the Left (eg. Greens, RFK originally) or was apolitical? Found an audience, repacked it, ideological convergence.

groundloop.bsky.social•70 days ago

What I found striking in discussions was how parallel the arguments were with arguments against genetic engineering, which you still find more on the Left. People who'd be nervous about "genes" in food, but aligned as anti-anti-vax and had no problem with mRNA vaccinces.

groundloop.bsky.social•70 days ago

* repackaged.

thefluffernutter.bsky.social•70 days ago

I’ve seen some women I know (or more accurately, used to know) make the leap from health-focused/organic/natural/holistic/essential oils/coconut oil/home remedies, etc. to MAGA and anti-vax because it’s a “my child’s body is a temple” thing and vaccines are not “natural.” They go down a rabbit hole.

deeptabhattacha.bsky.social•70 days ago

Though counterpoint—in the U.S. at least, anti-vax was generally associated with the left (crunchy granola types) until ~Trump. I think it’s some weird form of tribalism.

follicular.bsky.social•70 days ago

I think that's where it was most publicized, I guess an outgrowth of the hippie back-to-nature movement. I think there's also been a long-time big anti-vax contingent among the very conservative religious right.

akshatsharma.bsky.social•70 days ago

I feel like it was always both but for wildly different reasons. For the Right/Libertarian lot, it was freedom/religious expression (e.g. in 2015 when CA tried to remove personal belief exemptions for vaccines), while Lefty anti-vaxxers cite Orientalist nonsense about chakras or purity or whatever.

deeptabhattacha.bsky.social•70 days ago

I don’t actually remember an organized anti-vax movement from the right back then. Seemed mostly the Marin county types. But don’t doubt that libertarians would flip over restricting personal belief exemptions. People should be able to choose measles, cuz free-dum!

snoopysmom.bsky.social•70 days ago

Yes. Trump wasn’t anti-vax but his base became antivax with the dislike of Fauci and the idea that the government was making them do something (mass oppositional defiance). I think the left version comes from the health focused believing their (healthy) bodies can handle anything better naturally.

akshatsharma.bsky.social•70 days ago

Where "healthy bodies can handle anything" often means "vaccines are for the poors."

snoopysmom.bsky.social•68 days ago

Since they healed disease with food, they falsely assume, they’re so healthy they don’t need vaccines (ie modern medicine) to help them when their body can heal itself. 2/2

snoopysmom.bsky.social•68 days ago

Not in the groups I’m familiar with. I belong to a number of healthy plant based groups, where people often reverse chronic disease with healthy food. They’ve turned sour on modern medicine that often offers side effects for managing a disease, never reversing. 1/2

lzvolk.bsky.social•70 days ago

Good point. I recall the anti-vax movement during the late 1960’s/1970’s (Hippie Era). Although anti-vax started before Trump: claims associated with autism, etc.

eckerleisabella.bsky.social•70 days ago

So here's my theory: Increasing childhood mortality keeps women in check. With vaccine-preventable diseases back, kids under 5 will die at an increasing rate. When you as a women are occupied by fear because of your sick kid, or you are grieving a dead child, you probably won't have the energy

follicular.bsky.social•70 days ago

Makes perfect sense

eckerleisabella.bsky.social•70 days ago

for anything else. You will need to have more children to compensate for the loss and to have some kids that become adults. In line with what the right-populist/extremists want! Women should be at home and have many children, and not speak up for their rights. Doesn't matter if a few die!

eckerleisabella.bsky.social•70 days ago

Just produce some more! Even better, you can even blame women for it when their kids die. Also this: For sexual transmitted diseases (HBV, HPV), you can argue that being abstinent is enough to protect you, so no need to have a vaccine (there is a lot of anti-vax against the HPV vaccine recently).

eckerleisabella.bsky.social•70 days ago

In addition: It will impact even more the vulnerable. Although vaccine-preventable diseases will kill perfectly healthy kids, they are often even more severe in those with underlying conditions. Don't know if my theory is backed up by social sciences - still maybe worth to think about it!

eckerleisabella.bsky.social•70 days ago

And if you think I am exaggerating about child mortality due to vaccine-preventable diseases, do to an old graveyard and look at the grave stones from before the era of vaccines!

christinahoelzel.bsky.social•70 days ago

Thanks a lot, I'm always very interested in sociomedical hypotheses, and this is an interesting one!

eckerleisabella.bsky.social•70 days ago

*go

moodogpress.com•70 days ago

🎯

https://bsky.app/profile/richardconniff.bsky.social/post/3ldoyw4qfrs2x

silkabelli.bsky.social•70 days ago

Yes!!!! This!!! And all of this! 👍🏼

delennara.bsky.social•51 days ago

Ich gehe oft über Friedhöfe. Bei den alten Gräbern fällt es auf, aber auch bei den aktuellen muslimischen. So viele Kindergräber!

lyrikundprosa.bsky.social•70 days ago

I think in this case it is largely contrarianism.
The left has declared themselves pro vax so the right is anti. They wern't always. Also the left esoteric/hippie anti vax groups have moved to the right since or have exposed their right wing beliefs that other leftists have criticized for ages.

okjabroni.bsky.social•70 days ago

There used to be so many dead babies that Sears and Roebuck sold gravestones for infants.

lzvolk.bsky.social•70 days ago

Absolutely! Cemeteries are a trip through history. e.g. high mortality rate of childbirth, # of family members during the Great Influenza, etc. They tell ‘stories’.

akjackson.bsky.social•70 days ago

Doing genealogy, more than once, I saw 3 or 4 children in a family die within weeks due to "pick a disease". Horrible.

avalonesome.bsky.social•70 days ago

Even before that, looking on how women are treated socially and medically in fascist countries, a lot will die from childbirth or pregnancy.
Everything connected to child and reproduction is a trauma for women. From the "legal" rapes and incest to teach her life to pregnancy, then raising child.

daluc.bsky.social•70 days ago

I follow you here. A lot of right wing health politics is around keeping women out of the public.

On the other hand: Right-wing populism doesn't have to believe in what it communicates. Those people are evil, not stupid: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/18/robert-f-kennedy-jr-cheryl-hines-party-vaccinated-guests

merkmich.bsky.social•70 days ago

One motif of fascism is the believe in the survival of the strongest. And yes, you need many children, but the individual doesn’t count. So not sure of your (plausible) theory holds.

rainlights.net•70 days ago

It's a very interesting question. Maybe it's really a case of "we're so strong, so healthy and so much in the right, don't you dare tell us we're weak and need your science and syringes for protection"

ikostenas.bsky.social•61 days ago

Your theory may focus too much on children, but adults care about their own health too (they spend a lot of money). And yes, sadly, children are often seen (economy and other stakeholders) as secondary or obstacles, which is why I advise female candidates not to mention children in their CVs.

ikostenas.bsky.social•61 days ago

This theory applies to some but reflects a wider spectrum. The main interfaces (populiation) with illnesses are general practitioners & compulsory schools. GPs, as small business owners, are not focused on sharing vaccine information.We entered a pandemic with a population that had little knowledge.

ggronvall.bsky.social•70 days ago

It’s going to be very difficult to have babies in childcare who are too young to have all their vaccines if there are measles outbreaks on the regular. Not to mention if daycare providers don’t need to be vaccinated

sophierichardson.bsky.social•70 days ago

This is definitely a solid part of this. Also just them having a crap take because they don’t understand how immune systems work and are lowkey eugenicists.

RFK Jr literally thinks his lifestyle and genes makes him like a Superman even though he’s fully vaxxed and acts like he’s not.

sophierichardson.bsky.social•70 days ago

Also sociopaths and narcissists know they can gain the most through maximum chaos and nothing does that better than making life turn to Victorian times where poison, plague and disease is ripping though everything constantly.

tsudhonimh.bsky.social•70 days ago

Because they believe in "survival of the fittest" and don't want "weak" offspring.

beornblack.bsky.social•70 days ago

a lot of this has no tactical planning. mostly stochastic in design to undermine and cripple the nation.

if it was thought out, they would not want to increase poverty and want the poor to raise kids in poverty. it would be a tinder on TNT-crime would explode.

this is all for short term gains.

pubvet.bsky.social•70 days ago

Thanks Isabella for sharing a theory that at least assuages my rational brain’s near apoplexy at everything it’s been hearing lately.
I suspect my rational brain is organizing an internal revolt in my CNS as I keep failing to provide its daily needs for public health logic, optimism and calm.

jonploug.bsky.social•70 days ago

It's the social darwinism aspect that is attractive to them. That is always the recurring theme with them. On the left, you also find anti-vaxxers, but here it's generally without social darwinism

jonploug.bsky.social•70 days ago

Ideology is often easier to study via images; this is a perfect illustration of the right-wing antivax, social darwinistic ideology. There is a overlap with the left but they have the social darwinism and conservative family ideals mostly for themself

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FY0b9bXWYAA5JyO.jpg

jonploug.bsky.social•70 days ago

Notice how the fantasy about the death of “globalist scumbags” (with glasses) is close to old antisemitic conspiracy thinking.

sofiagastellu.bsky.social•56 days ago

📌

ben-no.bsky.social•70 days ago

In Germany, the right has historically always rejected conventional medicine/ "Schulmedizin" (seen as being influenced and dominated by Jews) and propagated natural health through hardening and racial hygiene.

jcdescy.bsky.social•70 days ago

You might also want to look into Rudolf Steiner, his stance on race and his anthroposophic medicine.

crumbsey.bsky.social•70 days ago

We're Germans, we don't have to "look into Rudolf Steiner"—we've lived through that shit (and are still fighting it especially in public health).

jcdescy.bsky.social•70 days ago

Also das kann ich halt überhaupt nicht wissen, wo jemand herkommt. Offensichtlich auch nicht vom Namen her. Und auch hier, in Deutschland, wo ich lebe, wissen viele nur sehr oberflächlich über Steiner und sein Werk bescheid. Leider. Wird ja auch immernoch kräftig verbreitet.

crumbsey.bsky.social•70 days ago

Na, eine hochrangige Virologin wie Frau Eckerle weiß da schon Bescheid.

crumbsey.bsky.social•70 days ago

Sie beschreibt genau diese Verbindung in ihrem Thread. Viele in Deutschland *wollen* es nicht wissen, das ist das Problem; es wird "kräftig verbreitet", weil das Nazi-Gedankengut leider wieder "in" ist.

jcdescy.bsky.social•70 days ago

Ja, ich hatte eben beim Lesen das Gefühl, dass diese Verbindung zu Steiner und dessen Gedankengut hier etwas zu wenig deutlich wird. Aber sorry, dass ich was gesagt hab. Schönen Abend noch!

anthroblogger.bsky.social•69 days ago

Ich arbeite daran. :-)

https://www.Anthroposophie.blog

crumbsey.bsky.social•69 days ago

Sehr gut! 👍👍

dermadoc.bsky.social•70 days ago

📌

mjschwarz.bsky.social•70 days ago

This is only the male part of the picture, it doesn't explain why many females are against not only vaccinations but also abortion rights and even women's shelters.

undinium.bsky.social•70 days ago

Stockholm Syndrome

lzvolk.bsky.social•70 days ago

Have wondered about that, too. As if women were ‘brainwashed.’ Would like to see a psychological/sociological theory on this.

rainlights.net•70 days ago

Something with culture. And God (= professional anthropological opinion :))

lzvolk.bsky.social•70 days ago

My atheism has become strongly dogmatic in the last decade. Religion may have served a purpose early in our civilization but now it’s literally destroying us.

lehrermitbart.bsky.social•70 days ago

I guess they deny basically everything that promotes freedom and independence. Health and safety from harm are crucial parts of that. Therefore, they try to establish full control.

stromausfall13.bsky.social•64 days ago

Don't bring facts to a feelings fight. It's just another "us vs. them" story that's useful to mobilise feelings for political purposes.

lyndalovon.bsky.social•70 days ago

Add climate deniers and chemtrail conspiracy theorists. It is about demonizing the government so that we allow the plutocracy to take control because clearly “the people” if left to their own devices will become evil. But the billionaires will not? These are brain damaged people.

aelurillus.bsky.social•70 days ago

Why are they pro life, but against universal healthcare? So many topics make no sense with those people.

justmeanybody.bsky.social•69 days ago

Because right wing populists promote Russian propaganda designed to kill and weaken us. Anti vax propaganda killed many in the US and weakened our economy, increased the economic costs of Covid. Anti immigration foments hate division and will hurt the economy through loss of workers.

albertoreale.bsky.social•70 days ago

I think it is a mixture of things. 1)Rejection of the "mainstream": this includes anything that appears to be accepted, from climate change to lgbtq+ rights to, of course, medicine and vaccines. 2)Connected: rejection of anything "new". In the mind of far right extremists

albertoreale.bsky.social•70 days ago

There was an idealised past in which things were done as they supposed to be and everybody was happy. Of course, this includes men being in charge of everything. Whatever disturbs the routine (like, authorities pushing you to vaccinate) is a modern devilry and probably woke

albertoreale.bsky.social•70 days ago

Never mind that this idealised past never existed. For some things, it seems to be located in the 1950s, but vaccination for smallpox has been enforced since the 19th century. This is a common feature of myth, the age of myth is outside of history.

albertoreale.bsky.social•70 days ago

The idolisation of the past is especially successful, as the western world has an aging population..

susandespres.bsky.social•69 days ago

There is a lot of eugenics baked into the anti-vax movement. It dovetails predictably with white nationalism and fascism.

susandespres.bsky.social•69 days ago

At the root these people really believe in culling weakness out of the herd. They won’t say it out loud, but to them the bonus is eliminating undesirable genetic defects and germ lines that do not produce robust offspring.

Disabled people have been screaming about these jerks for years.

veraendert.bsky.social•65 days ago

Social Darwinism. Survival of the strongest and fittest. With some of them believing that their own children are stronger than others.

christineloriol.bsky.social•70 days ago

I higly reccoment Peter Hotez' Book "The Deadly Rise of Anti-Science" in which he does exactly this: making visible the strings between Antivaxxers and the far right. It was decades in the making, a center of it being Texas. And as a main term: Health Supremacy. https://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title/33293/deadly-rise-anti-science?srsltid=AfmBOoqv1ZB-rRug3jvnqKLblbI5e5ma5MHvAYUIdI6dcoHX0FGltMfk

christineloriol.bsky.social•70 days ago

*recommend

seegras.bsky.social•70 days ago

The really early anti-vaxxer movement starts with the first vaccines and immediately draws upon images of Jews as well-poisoners which goes several hundred years back. So this has been antisemitic from the start, reinforced by Nazi Germany as well. https://segu-geschichte.de/impfgegner/
#AntiVaxxers #Nazis

lolalolajoaquin.bsky.social•65 days ago

@threadreader.bsky.social unroll thanks

davidsainez.com•65 days ago

https://skywriter.blue/pages/eckerleisabella.bsky.social/post/3ldqirq6lkk2r

florantia.bsky.social•70 days ago

It's not about health, it's just about weakening the faith in the government!
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/russische-desinformation-es-geht-ihnen-darum-unsere-gesellschaft-zu-spalten-interview-lutz-guellner-a-0b557b4a-7987-44e6-8b39-77137a9dbd10

sharonburnabybc.bsky.social•69 days ago

I would like to read it, but it’s in German and seems to be paywalled. I would do a translate if I could get past that….

florantia.bsky.social•69 days ago

use https://archive.is with the link of thd article

sharonburnabybc.bsky.social•69 days ago

Thank you! It worked!

bjoern.starkimarm.de•70 days ago

Are they also against modern medicine and for "traditional" births? Because if a mother dies after childbirth one can get a new young wife... 🤮

taigatree.bsky.social•70 days ago

I imagine that being anti-vax is simply part of being anti-science. Because science is facts / truth, and without truth, it’s easier to manipulate people.

Oh, and course they hate women!

taigatree.bsky.social•70 days ago

*of course

lyndalovon.bsky.social•70 days ago

I do think it has a lot to do with keeping women oppressed, because the liberation of women brought about the liberation of gay people in liberation of a lot of other oppressed groups. Women should just all become lesbians and replace themselves. Fuck the patriarchy.

merkmich.bsky.social•70 days ago

Anti-Vaxx is reactionary for the last 200 years. The article below highlights this (in German)

taigatree.bsky.social•70 days ago

Thanks for sharing! 👍🏻

aloa5.bsky.social•70 days ago

Dumbness wins. As easy as that.

First, people hate that there is something they should or have to do, constraints.

Second, as with covid or global warming, humans dislike the consequences which may arise out of knowledge, which lead back to the first pt.

"You should, because..."
-->> Just No!

davepermen.net•65 days ago

Because Supremacy is about 'not needing to be dependent on medical help'. Eugenics, Ableism are core drivers of "we're the strong ones, we're the right ones, we're the better ones".

It's about weeding out the weak. Removing them.

beutlermd.bsky.social•70 days ago

Faith plays a role imo. Evangelicals believe “when it’s my time, it’s my time (decided by God)” and nothing you can do to stop it. Plus vax are an “answer” to the chronic disease epidemic-something to blame instead of supporting govt/ social improvements that would improve health.

fyrdrakken.bsky.social•70 days ago

Part of the pro-natalist idea is to keep women at home and *busy,* not able to escape the high-maintenance baby-tending years after 2-3 kids and return to the workforce while the kids go to school. (Which also leads to homeschooling, keeping women tied to the home.)

fyrdrakken.bsky.social•70 days ago

And a big part of the Christian patriarchal Quiverfull thing is the idea of putting all your family planning in God's hands. If he wants you to have 12 kids it's sinful to use birth control. If he wants to give you a child with birth defects that give it a life expectancy of hours after birth...

fyrdrakken.bsky.social•70 days ago

It would be a sin to abort that child when the ultrasound and other prenatal testing say it's doomed, because God wants you to learn a lesson for the benefit of your soul. The antivax overlap could be part of the theme of healthcare through faith.

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