So there's something that comes up in this video, and I want to make note of it in a way that isn't some dogpile callout, but it's the sentiment expressed in the video (around 3:00 or so) which is that Paizo released Pathfinder as a response to D&D 4E being too different, but that really isn't true - ThreadSky

kaitave.bsky.social • 21 days ago

So there's something that comes up in this video, and I want to make note of it in a way that isn't some dogpile callout, but it's the sentiment expressed in the video (around 3:00 or so) which is that Paizo released Pathfinder as a response to D&D 4E being too different, but that really isn't true

Reposted from Tales from Elsewhere

This week, I take a fun dive into the history of #lancer and its TTRPG designs. There are lessons to learned from this wonderful game! #ttrpg #indiedev #dnd
youtu.be/7W3dpx21ph8

Comments

talesfromelsewhere.bsky.social•20 days ago

A fair point, indeed! I brushed through a lot of details quickly to try to keep the video at about 10 minutes; it's not really a robust exploration of the history of these games, but instead just a super quick overview so I could instead focus on the game mechanic lesson that was the vid's purpose.

kaitave.bsky.social•21 days ago

Paizo started working on what would become Pathfinder before they even knew what 4E's rules would look like, and they did so because as former contractors working for WotC, they were up to their elbows in 3.X edition knowhow and wanted to keep going with that

kaitave.bsky.social•21 days ago

Later on, Paizo DID lean into the edition warring of the period with cheeky little marketing jabs, but the persistent idea that Pathfinder was designed as a reaction to people seeing D&D 4E and going "ewww, daily powers, dissociated mechanics!" is simply not factually correct, it didn't happen

kaitave.bsky.social•21 days ago

Wikipedia also cites the GSL as a potential reason for Paizo's decision to continue working within the OGL (while noting that at the time they didn't even know what 4E's rules looked like, kinda hard to make a reactionary game against a big question mark)

mjolna.bsky.social•21 days ago

that idea does describe what brought a notable part of the playerbase to Pathfinder, sadly, for both Paizo and the rest of tabletop

kaitave.bsky.social•21 days ago

Yeah, it was not a non-existent factor in the period where both games existed, and they released fairly close enough together that it's inevitable that they would get compared, and as I note Paizo leaned into this in a way that has very distinctly soured me on them as a publisher even to this day

kaitave.bsky.social•21 days ago

I simply dislike, as a matter of elfgameological historical accuracy, the oft-repeated take that Paizo made Pathfinder as a reaction to 4E being too much of a departure from 3E, when the actual reason is that they made Pathfinder as a reaction to getting downsized

officialestpaizo.bsky.social•20 days ago

Yeah I softened on Paizo over the years over that as it turns out WoTC kind of screwed them out as their major source of revenue was Dungeons and Dragon and Wizards kind of jumped dumped the news on them that they were taking it in house. So they had to do something.

professorcirno.bsky.social•19 days ago

As I understand, the timeline is: WotC sells magazines to Paizo and makes them the unofficial source for 3.x adventures -> Paizo grows as this ended up being a fucking stupid move of WotC lmao -> WotC suddenly cuts their contracts and Paizo has double digit employees who still need to pay bills.

professorcirno.bsky.social•19 days ago

Much as I loved 4e, the actual business practices of WotC were and continue to be them shooting themselves in the foot, and that bullet ricocheting and hitting everyone else around them in the head, and then nerds who view D&D as their core identity bail them out, over and over again.

maotenno.bsky.social•21 days ago

The problem with the "made in response
is the timeline doesn't really line up for that to be possible.

maotenno.bsky.social•21 days ago

Like, 300+ page books with art illustartions and charts do not simply appear out of the ether. It seems more likely Paizo was at the right place at the right time while WOTC committed some pretty big bag fumbles, perceived and real.

strigarosa.bsky.social•21 days ago

Yeah, it was WotC killing their contracts and they kinda needed a system for their adventures, with their adventure paths being what brought the cash. After this WotC fuckers, they did their own 3e.

I remember how excited they were of making adventures for 4e before this.

binarystar.games•21 days ago

Beyond just contracts getting killed, I would imagine the switch from OGL to GSL put the kibosh on wanting to rely on being a third party hanger-on in that classic d20 boom way.

strigarosa.bsky.social•21 days ago

That and being aware how much work they did to breath life into WotC dumbass decisions and how much people that played the game liked their work.

binarystar.games•21 days ago

Thinking a lot about the OGL bullshit 2 years ago spawned at least two 5thfinders I can think of offhand for...well, exactly the same reason: it turns out when someone else is making all of your good content and you scare them off, they might realize they don't have to put up with this shit and dip.

strigarosa.bsky.social•21 days ago

And it was the same way; the ones that succeeded from those came from two people that made content that was super popular for 5e. One through designfluencing, the other very baffling.

No, I will never understand how kobold press has shooters.

dragoncobolt.bsky.social•21 days ago

Oh that makes a lot more sense

strigarosa.bsky.social•21 days ago

When people say WotC created its main competitor, it is less about the OGL and more "oh, the people that keep making the stuff that makes people want to play DnD? Let's kill our contracts with them for the next edition."

strigarosa.bsky.social•21 days ago

That and them being basically working on fixing 3.x crap for forever for their adventures, making more content for it than anyone and having to think more about its design than Monte Cook ever did...

They had already designed their own system *before* 4e came out.

strigarosa.bsky.social•21 days ago

And this is all dancing around the real killer:

This was not because of 3e. This was not because of 4e.

This was because of Dragon and Dungeon. WotC taking their magazines from Paizo and cutting off all that money? That kinda forced them to swim or die.

homebrewandhacking.bsky.social•21 days ago

That's certainly the history and motivations as recalled by the people who were there.

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