So I have now read the Big Three Ayn Rand Books, atlas shrugged, the fountainhead, and anthem. And I have this to say: she’s bad at writing books, so bad, in fact, that I find her popularity genuinely strange
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Fountainhead is good, although she makes the same points repeatedly.
That said - you can appreciate where she came from as an author, and how that inspires the book. And it forces the reader to engage, and agree or disagree. It’s good when a book does that.
It’s mostly terrible as a work of storytelling so almost nobody really *reads it*, and thus it hides all kinds of ideas bad people can lean on philosophically for their already-bad machinations.
the 1949 Fountainhead movie is an incredible piece of fever dream cinema.
the three Atlas Shrugged movies they made in the 2010s are great for seeing/showing just how much difference going from “low budget” to “no budget” can make
But, they just said he liked The Fountainhead? That's a 600 page masturbatory exercise in selfishness so poorly written it feels like it's at least 1000 pages long.
I mean I haven’t read The Fountainhead, just Atlas Shrugged. There are whole chapters that are just explanations and manifestos so I feel like those extra 400 pages really make the difference. Also the weird part of objectivism where it’s cool to cheat on your spouse if the other person is better.
The Fountainhead has some sexual assault scenes depicted as the heroic male taking what he knows is rightfully his and the heroic woman later coming to see that he was right.
Rand's whole thing is how being an asshole is actually good because
After I read the fountainhead (recommended by a former friend) all i could think was: "Well there's 6 hours I'll never get back." Nothing redeeming at all, not one thing.
All I came away with from the movie was- "Rape is cool" and "Poor people don't deserve balconies". Raymond Massey's head must have exploded from being in this film, but a guy's gotta eat I guess.
Fountainhead was digestible as a very young man. I then rented the Atlas Shrugged “book-on-tape” from an Indiana Cracker Barrel. I threw it out the window of my car while speeding down the interstate. It was worth it.
I understand throwing it out the window can be satisfying, but since it was a rental as you say, how much have you been charged for “losing” it?
I find that the costs to replace can be steeper than just buying it retail.
Or have you done the “American” thing and never returned to Cracker Barrel?
I loved Anthem just because I’m way too into dystopian books. It was also fun to read because it completely somehow fundamentally failed to convince me of the goodness of the authors ideas. I liked it and came out an Ayn Rand anti-fan lmao.
"The Fountainhead" is mediocre. It became popular because wealthy supporters of Rand's dumb-ass philosophy paid to have thousands of mini paperbacks printed for the troops to read in WWII.
And the plot is appealing to young people, especially men, who feel the world doen't appreciate them enough,
I don't read a lot of popular fiction, and I am trying to avoid snark here, but isn't a lot of it badly written? It doesn't seem to be a relevant point in terms of popularity.
Fountainhead also has the most explicit rape/ravishment fantasy stuff going in it which is one of those interesting themes throughout her work - I’m sure some academic has written on it - but would love to see longform video content on the sexual politics of Ayn Rand
Definitely a shocking read as a teen girl- but also, it’s this kind of fascinating look at like Rand’s belief that the highest ideal for a woman is to be objectified and owned & like her psychosexual satisfaction with that model of being possessed ~ her desire to see capitalism dominate
Hot take: We the Living (about growing up during the Communist takeover of Russia) is actually pretty decent.
Writing one good book went to her head and with her egotism led to a refusal to internalize any criticism producing some epically juvenile writing. (Juveniles love it though.)
I agree, not a reliable account but at least loosely grounded in her own experience and written from her perspective. Before she decided her unexamined prejudices were Objective Reality.
Ayn Rand is the Ben Shapiro of literature, appealing to exactly the same cross-section of humanity that seeks validation - glorification even - for their sociopathic tendencies, under the veneer of pseudo-intellectualism.
I can see your point but would suggest your observation is a little simplified for understandable reasons. He use of fiction to project her Objectivism philosophy was a failure on several accounts. But the substance of her ideas were brilliant, also by many measures
"also by many measures"
Could you please enumerate those many measures?
Clearly one of them must be "the more elitist, the better", but what are the others?
She was popular when I was in high school and all the young wanna be intellectuals (including me) in my class were into reading her books. However what appeals to a 16 year old does not have the same appeal once you get a bit more mature. It basically is just childish fantasy.
Agreed. I have a rule… If I start a book, I have to read all the way through it, good or bad. I made an exception for her books. 40 pages in, I said “Nope”
May I, a stranger who knows nothing about you but nonetheless has an opinion, suggest that you ditch your rule? If you hate a book then ditch it, no matter how little you've read! There are too many books in the world to waste time on something that doesn't click with you.
Very true, and getting to all of them is a stretch already. Admittedly, I’ve read both glorious, and horrific writing, but the bad makes the good shine.
I read all of her fiction and several of her nonfiction books - in HS. The only one of her novels I found remotely readable, with relatively round characters, was We the Living. I kept all 4 of her novels on my bookshelf until I was 32 or so, as a reminder of how stupid I have been.
I love how she writes characters who bear absolutely no resemblance to any human being who has actually lived. I don't mean that ironically either. Her novels are like speculative fiction of alien psyches.
Be careful. I'd argue that many of the people who occupy positions within the executive branch do, in fact, resemble them. That may be incomprehensible to you, but that doesn't mean that they're not out there.
That's the one thing that drew me to her characters (when I was younger) - their sheer competence. In Fountainhead the main character develops a basic version of calculus while building a rope and pulley system when he was a kid.
I realize they're caricatures, but at the same time, so is someone like Superman. I wanted to *try* to be as close to these characters in their level of competence as possible; they gave me something to aspire to be like.
No, see that’s just it. They do NOT resemble them, because the characters in her books are benevolent in the sense that their greed makes the world a better place for everyone.
And the current folks may think the same. Do you think Musk actually looks in the mirror and says,"I am a greedy, abusive, incompetent fool!"? No, he thinks he is a real life John Galt. Back when he was mainstreaming EVs, he might even have had a point until he threw it all away.
But did you notice why they left society? A teacher said he wasn't allowed to teach certain subjects. A doctor was required what procedures he was allowed to perform. And there was one other problem someone left. ( forgot what it was)
Everything that what's happening now.
I always thought Atlas Shrugged was a similar criticism of capitalism as Bioshock, since I’m pretty sure Atlas is named that bc of the book, and it’s referenced at least once. My surprise when it’s a garbage romance about garbage people being garbage. Great title though
Bioshock was more a satire on people who think Atlas Shrugged was a good book rather than the overall message of the game aligning with the book. I assumed it was the other way around until I learned what the book was about. That’s what I was trying to get at
Honestly I always suggest reading We The Living if you're gonna read Rand because she was actually honest about finding socialists sexy as fuck in that one.
I’ve read reviews that they are most appealing to young males in that hormonal insecure early stages of puberty. That age when their ‘nads haven’t quite dropped, so they don’t know if they’ll be “virile manly men” or suffer life long ridicule with a tiny pp.
Unintelligent people are accustomed to not understanding something but accepting that it's true and brilliant anyway, especially when said something is just poorly written and not actually brilliant.
I think many of them DON'T. They maybe hit Anthem, because it's a short story, skim the rest, or read a synopsis. Ayn Rand hits a unique niche. Too long for the non-readers, too crappy for the readers.
Keep in mind when these were written. A Russian immigrant living in Hollywood in the 1930s-1940s. For non-history buffs, Google Second Red Scare.
As for the “feel sorry for rich people” it was satire. It was the same in Great Gatsby.
Don’t try to put the writer in our time. Most books don’t last.
She was happily taking handouts from people in her 20's as well. It's only [other poor people] that should never ever be given anything, from anyone, ever.
Best/worst part?
She was given the money because she couldn't afford food- she spent it on fancy lingerie.
But God forbid the poors want to survive on more than rice & beans.
AR was a parasite. her father was a dentist, and so her family lived a life of privilege in a feudalistic society that still allowed people to practically own slaves.
when the revolution came, her family lost that privilege, and she became bitter.
Good point. Yer man Adam Curtis has some interesting documentaries about this. Covering Ms Rand and Vlad etc. Can you imagine if social media had been a thing when she was on the scene?
A good book called HOW BAD WRITING DESTROYED THE WORLD. It draws a line from the mid 1800s Russian anarchists through Ayn Rand to the 2007 financial crisis. Very astute analysis.
Objectivism is a fancy word for social Darwinism and a world without empathy where those who already own the means and modes of production get to win because they are the “strongest”.
(a) I'm genuinely impressed that you stuck with reading these notoriously bad books.
(b) I strongly suspect it's that the people who get obsessively into her aren't really big readers of literature. The ideological affinity trumps any artistic considerations.
The people I’ve met who idolize her seem to have read the Cliff’s Notes versions of her books. They all give the same bullet point-style summaries along with a “powerful” quote or two
I think, though, that there is enough diversity of thought and viewpoint within the Christian tradition for nationalists to find ample material to draw upon. (The history of Christianity, from Constantine onwards has always been one of compromise with what we would now call state power.)
Even if you limit yourself to the study of the Bible, for every 'nice' bit about peace and justice there's something like the genocidal conquest of Canaan in Joshua, or the infanticidal rage so vividly described at the conclusion of Psalm 137.
The Christianity I grew up with really took "new testament" to heart; the old testament was meant to inform the traditions of the 'messianic' role of Christ; but it had no role in informing our life decisions as Christians. The Old Testament was about supremacy, the New Testament's about humbleness.
But totally, the Catholic Church's ascension heavily relied on maleable dogmatic principles and theologies that could absorb the traditions of newly 'saved' cultures- keeping the imperial lessons of Rome to help it dominate humanity for centuries.
JD Rockefeller, Carnegie, .. the people who funded " libraries" wanted them populated with crap like this... You are better man than me Gunga Din.. I couldn't read the propaganda..
I did relate to the end of Atlas Shrugged, where the people who actually want to do things create their own Society up in the mountains. I have thought about getting some of my friends together and doing that...lol. there aren't many of us who want to actually get to work
You =wish= they were dystopian... no, they tell the reader that the only way to be fulfilled in today's world is to care about yourself to the active exclusion/persecution of the rest of society
Her books are so crappy, I’m surprised they aren’t more popular. Maybe she was born too soon. Seems like she should’ve had a blockbuster like 50 Shades of Grey.
She presents important ideas that don't have easy answers, even for hard core liberals.
Unfortunately the fascists drool so much at their own packaging of her views that it becomes impossible for any civil human to consider them objectively.
Terribly written books. Also, a seductive but ultimately completely wrong philosophy behind it. In any case, as a russians she is automatically disqualified from being considered seriously.
I’ve heard this criticism before.
People (and presumably she) paid into these systems while they work, then are paid back when they retire.
So it isn’t socialism.
(Not that I’m a fan)
So funny-I had a boss insist I read Atlas Shrugged to teach me to “grow up”. I gave up in the valley of industry. I’d had enough. Glad to know it wasn’t going to get better
I think Musk is trying to build his own VOI in Texas
I remember reading them and being enthralled, for a period of time. Then I developed enough critical thinking to realize a few things. 1. A novel is a fantasy world where the author can make things turn out any way they want them to. 2. Lots of people work really hard and don't get rich. etc, etc.
Paul Ryan required every member of his staff to read her nonsense when he was in Congress. Reinforcing the idea that people helping each other is somehow wrong
I had an English teacher assign Anthem in high school. I must have blacked it out because honestly I don't remember a thing about it. She also had all of her classes participate in an Ayn Rand writing competition and went on about how "revolutionary" her books are 🤢
If you think that's bad, wait till you hear about the other teacher I had that would give out free copies of "The Law" and "The Secret". He would show his classes shitty documentaries about them, and probably spent more time trying to indoctrinate us into being libertarians than actually teaching.
That’s very true. In fact the mirage that the books are fiction mostly just enables her to just repeat the same self help mantras over and over while pretending they’re plot relevant
As self help tips go, “refuse to take a class required for your architecture degree, flunk out, and then insist it’s the world’s fault for not appreciating your brilliance” …. isn’t great
Also “blow up a building if they mess up your design, represent yourself at the criminal trial, and make the judge listen to your philosophy on life for hours” will not, in fact, go well for you.
And if anybody wants to know where that particular brand of insane libertarian, sovereign citizens come from... They go to represent themselves in court & loose their shit when the Rand fantasy of being able to just monologue manifestos in court is dashed by judges.
This is actually it. Her “philosophy” was openly rejected and mocked by modern philosophers at the time so she decided to make a ham fisted narrative about it. And since conservatives can’t understand nuance and themes typically, they fell in love with a book so on the nose they couldn’t miss them
I had a date show up with one of her books in hand. I was visibly a little weirded out, so she reassured me that she just liked the characters and writing.
Read it as a naive teen and found the virtue of selfishness quite appealing! Slowly became ashamed of this viewpoint as life experience caught up to me.
If you boil atlas shrugged down to it’s bare bones, I like the idea of skypirates and all the very homosexual undertones, between the weird anti poor people disciple guys. They’re just a bunch a pals that wanna cuddle in piles of money, and she wants to watch. Besides that though it sucks.
I’m still questioning (& berating) myself for reading The Fountainhead after spending time reading Atlas Shrugged. How did I NOT learn the futility of that 1st read!?
I have not read any of her books, but found the people that raved positively of them stupid. Seems I’m not missing out? Should I continue not reading them?
So, I actually like Black Mirror because they accurately critique our relationship with technology as a net negative. But I realize I might be biased there. It mostly horrifies me.
I love all the Discworld stuff but if you're looking for something a little different, I just started the Long Earth series he collaborated on and am enjoying it immensely.
This one started with Equal Rites, but really any of the lines or independents would be good. Sir pTerry didn't miss. There's a chart you can search for for the reading order that won't have any spoilers.
The Guards line is one of the better ones, per this one, but they're all so good.
I recommend MONSTROUS REGIMENT or HOGFATHER. After that, ask yourself if you would like to know more about
-Practical witching
-Fantasy police procedurals
-Wizard Bureaucracy
-Civil servant con men
-DEATH and his family
-Fantasy technological progress
-Scots gnomes and shepherd magic
-Other
I read maybe half of Atlas Shrugged, and was terribly unimpressed. So I chose not to waste more time, vainly hoping I’d find justification for the hype.
It's not deep. Shitty people see another shitty person being Out and Proud about it and feel better knowing that someone of their shitty caliber can, in fact, "make it". It justifies their inferiority
Same reason a charisma void like Matt Walsh became popular: oligarchs decided to make them succeed no matter what. It happens so often that anything with a hint of conservatism should have its popularity questioned until it is definitely proven to be genuine.
I mean her books are popular for the same reason scientology books are: some rich people threw a loooot of money at continually promoting them for decades
Her popularity isn’t based on the quality of her writing. It’s based on her extremest ideology of Objectivism. It’s an empty, ill evolved, immature and immoral philosophy in my view.
It was an era when women were learning to stand up for ourselves. We didn’t have a lot of role models. We were coming out of well, Korea and entering Vietnam and questioning everything especially the government and corporate leadership. It was an era.
An ex told me to read Atlas Shrugged & Fountainhead because I "might learn something". What I learned from those books was that *his* personal philosophy was based on a really self-centered way of being and one that is also quite bigoted (e.g, thinking one is superior to everyone else). No thanks.
I broke up with a guy I had dated for awhile after he told me how brilliant she was and how these were his favorite books. I read them, dropped him. Was happier.
A lot of fans were first time readers are like 12-15 and something about the simplistic, sophomoric “I’m smart so I’m one of prime movers of reality” throws certain types of personalities and some born on 3rd base types to experience arrested development and she becomes their favorite author.
The John Galt radio address was ninety pages long. I realized that would have been roughly 54,000 words or roughly 900 minutes on the air. Basically a big potboiler romance and I thought people like Paul Ryian had to be insane to take her seriously as an economic guru. But that was the big red flag.
That said, "I want to live" is probably the only one that is somewhat based around reality. At least a russian friend told me she got the details of life in Russia kind of right... and it was not a thousand pages long.
Always made me laugh how Savid Javid was happy to share how he read the courtroom scene from Fountainhead twice a year like it was something to be proud of the pompous git.
The first Rand book I picked up (in 8th grade) bore a frontispiece blurb denouncing her unrequited crush Nathaniel Branden.
I was a child and I thought that childish.
My wife took it out of my hands whilst I was three quarters of the way through it. She said she couldn't put up with all the swearing and despairing. I've been Rand-free ever since.
I don't care for his novels, but the short story "Hills Like White Elephants" is a great conversation starter when teaching teens, if they aren't prone to snitch to their parents about every controversial topic discussed in school.
I read Catcher in high school and I despised the main character. Probably the first book that I ever hated. It does not surprise me at all that it was poorly written, I just wasn’t smart enough to pick up on that being the issue at the time. 🤣
I read atlas shrugged and stopped after that. I don’t get it either, except that I think it makes cisgender straight white men feel really, really good about themselves and their ideas.
I remember reading Anthem, Ayn Rand for kids I think now. It was narrated in all plural pronouns, then he discovered “I”. It was seductive for my 14-yo brain at the time but was really just about selfishness and isolation, which, in my mind, SHOULD go AGAINST human nature.
I slogged through atlas and fountainhead years ago, before I gave myself permission to stop reading a book when it sucks. I just couldn’t read anymore of that drivel.
You are a more patient person than I. I read Anthem in middle school without knowing anything about Ayn Rand; it was ok.Then I tried reading The Fountainhead. I hated it so much that I literally threw it across the room and let it sit where it landed for a couple days to think about what it did.
Of the 3, Anthem is the only one I recommend- it’s…the shortest.
When I see things like “Books- but written by AI!” I just imagine libraries full of Ayn Rand drivel. Like- imagine if she had friends and was likeable…which is also how I describe libertarians 🤭😁
Rand's work emerged in the post war "Red Scare" McCarthy HUAC period ( Ultra Conservatism is not new to the US ), her rabid anti-collectivist work appealed to this crowd, it is also "romantic", story and characters are very Black & White, this appeals deeply to younger and adolescent readers.
I read them years ago, I thought they were interesting but I mean they are just books.
People who create a life philosophy out of Ayn Rand are no different than making a religion from reading L Ron Hubbard (and I have about the same respect for both)
You don't want me to talk much because I'm tired of the war and my children are suffering from the war on Gaza. I hope you can help me for the sake of my children.
I read Fountainhead at 14 and enjoyed it, but I think that's the peak age for the "we're special and everyone else sucks" attitude/pseudo-philosophy that suffuses her writing. her popularity I suspect comes from the fact that some people just never emotionally develop beyond that
Also that the Internet unfortunately enables that behaviour, especially if they go online young. Normally teens grow out of that phase and become decent human beings.
Because as badly as they are written, they tell awful people that their complete lack of empathy and borderline sociopathy are not just OK, they are noble, heroic, and to be admired.
One of the easiest way to convince someone that you are worth listening to is to tell them that their preferred behaviors and lifestyles are inherently righteous.
I read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and found them highly riveting. I still remember the opening paragraph to The fountainhead " Howard Rourke stood naked at the edge of the cliff". At least I think that's how it goes. I was 22 - it instilled a work ethic that I still hold to this day.
Even if a person has whatever hollowness in their soul that drives them to be an Objectivist, it's wild to pretend like her writing isn't absolutely garbage.
Still, she was right to have that 40 page rambling radio rant in Atlas Shrugged because that's basically manosphere streaming.
Completely agreed. It's also funny how The Fountainhead's protag suffers for sticking to objectivism, yet since Ayn Rand saw financial success, suddenly Atlas Shrugged has Objectivism as the rewarding path.
As a thought experiment, I tried Atlas shrugged. It was - at best - a tedious read. Worse than a movie where you figure out the plot, twist and ending in the first 5 min.
I enjoyed The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, but anyone who thinks that business or economics in the real world resembles the books in any way is delusional. Rand never ran a business in her life, she was a bohemian romantic writer and armchair philosopher.
I read Atlas Shrugged as a younger person and also spent long enough in the military to get a long service medal, and I am Even More of a libtard than I was before. Hah!
Remember she is popular with conservatives. Cons are low I.Q. individuals. It stands to reason they would find badly written novels interesting and a good read. I would think her rank hypocrisy (she DID receive s.s. benefits) would be off-putting but I look at today's repubs...yeah, not even.
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That said - you can appreciate where she came from as an author, and how that inspires the book. And it forces the reader to engage, and agree or disagree. It’s good when a book does that.
It’s mostly terrible as a work of storytelling so almost nobody really *reads it*, and thus it hides all kinds of ideas bad people can lean on philosophically for their already-bad machinations.
the three Atlas Shrugged movies they made in the 2010s are great for seeing/showing just how much difference going from “low budget” to “no budget” can make
I like parts of Ayn Rand’s stuff in high school, and then noped out of it.
Rand's whole thing is how being an asshole is actually good because
Even if it's not well written, at least it's somewhat human thematically
(I have not read it, only Atlas Shrugged which was awful)
How many cassettes did that monster fit on?
I find that the costs to replace can be steeper than just buying it retail.
Or have you done the “American” thing and never returned to Cracker Barrel?
And the plot is appealing to young people, especially men, who feel the world doen't appreciate them enough,
Writing one good book went to her head and with her egotism led to a refusal to internalize any criticism producing some epically juvenile writing. (Juveniles love it though.)
Could you please enumerate those many measures?
Clearly one of them must be "the more elitist, the better", but what are the others?
Your potshot appears to show you've made up your mind and I'm not one to waste my precious time arguing with the closed minded.
But you have a nice day in any case. You likely need it more than most. 😁
I'm curious, how many philosophers have you studied?
Aren't they fun?
Everything that what's happening now.
Especially if you played all the way through.
(2) I grow increasingly convinced of the Ayn Rand Was Doing A Bit hypothesis
That's the whole thing.
pseudo-academic cover for being the selfish assholes they just really want to be.
He read it, came back to me disappointed, a touch annoyed, and said, "This is not good."
So, I never read it. Ha!
Page count:
AS - 1088
NIV Bible - 1281 (https://biblereasons.com/how-many-pages-are-in-the-bible/)
Word count:
AS - 561K (https://www.tallandtrue.com.au/blog/the-longest-book-read)
NIV Bible - 727K (https://wordcounter.io/blog/how-many-words-are-in-the-bible)
As for the “feel sorry for rich people” it was satire. It was the same in Great Gatsby.
Don’t try to put the writer in our time. Most books don’t last.
She was given the money because she couldn't afford food- she spent it on fancy lingerie.
But God forbid the poors want to survive on more than rice & beans.
when the revolution came, her family lost that privilege, and she became bitter.
I say,
'John Galt was a big fucking crybaby.'
(b) I strongly suspect it's that the people who get obsessively into her aren't really big readers of literature. The ideological affinity trumps any artistic considerations.
She presents important ideas that don't have easy answers, even for hard core liberals.
Unfortunately the fascists drool so much at their own packaging of her views that it becomes impossible for any civil human to consider them objectively.
Fraud.
People (and presumably she) paid into these systems while they work, then are paid back when they retire.
So it isn’t socialism.
(Not that I’m a fan)
That's it.
I was into her once, then I grew up.
I think Musk is trying to build his own VOI in Texas
Way back then, we too came up with the same assessment.
The writing was awful.
What if black mirror but fear of socialism instead of tech, and also long and boring
The Guards line is one of the better ones, per this one, but they're all so good.
-Practical witching
-Fantasy police procedurals
-Wizard Bureaucracy
-Civil servant con men
-DEATH and his family
-Fantasy technological progress
-Scots gnomes and shepherd magic
-Other
The gage to know a bad writing technique
Just read Ayn Rand
Then you will know it
https://gofund.me/84aa6b44
I was a child and I thought that childish.
I was forced to read in HS
& college
I have an English lit degree
Shes very hard to read
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/russian-novel-chernyshevsky-financial-crisis-revolution-214516/
When I see things like “Books- but written by AI!” I just imagine libraries full of Ayn Rand drivel. Like- imagine if she had friends and was likeable…which is also how I describe libertarians 🤭😁
People who create a life philosophy out of Ayn Rand are no different than making a religion from reading L Ron Hubbard (and I have about the same respect for both)
https://gofund.me/6a24e02a
They love Ayn Rand.
They are called Republicans.
Repubs don't read enough to be familiar with Rand
So it doesn't matter how bad her writing was.
They're extremely self absorbed and feel like bad fanfiction.
Still, she was right to have that 40 page rambling radio rant in Atlas Shrugged because that's basically manosphere streaming.
(also lmao, hi Mads! Lorren here from Coolt.)
(Just kidding, of course)
Rush did it better.