anyone who's gonna go "it sucks but you gotta win over people first, slowly build the case for rights" for trans people should tell me, without looking it up, when they think interracial marriage reached majority approval in america
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loving was in 1967, interracial marriage approval passed 50% in 1995. it took 2 generations of it being legal for a slight majority of people to approve of it.
I think your original comment was read as "well, after" as in a rebuttal of shirts vs "well after" as in a long period of time. That's for I read it at first but I'm sleepy
That's a fair reading. It's rare for people to use punctuation appropriately, which can make reading some comments difficult if the reading could change by adding one
the reliance on the courts to grant rights makes for some really shitty incentives and also really weird revisionism about history and what's politically 'effective'. people talk about gay marriage and interracial marriage like dems won it in congress. they didn't. it was the courts.
the dems did not fight for it, in many cases they opposed the actual goal, and it was only after the courts made the decision for them did they act like they were all on board with it, supported it the whole time. "you have to win people over" - like, why? dems don't try to pass it as a bill.
instead every dicey social issue is punted to the courts, so "you need to win over people" becomes "actually you need to win over specifically SCOTUS" because it's not like our electeds are taking the lead on trying to codify and legalize shit. just punt to courts, again and again.
Seems like it would have, but I can count on one hand the number of interracial couples I know personally, and all of them have mentioned getting weird looks from strangers.
It reached majority approval in 1995. Of course, majority still doesn't strictly mean universal, and it wouldn't surprise me if some regions were significantly more shitty about interracial marriage than others.
It sucks, but you gotta defend yourself and your community first and foremost and if Liberals don't like that then it seems that is a them problem and they should shut the fuck up.
I am trying to wrap my head around someone thinking that this is a case that needs building, or that doing so is a slow process. It's two tiny little bite-sized concepts:
Trans rights are human rights.
Everyone should have their human rights respected.
Indiana remains incredibly fucking racist to this day. There are still active KKK groups in the state, and the town I went to college in was a no go town for Black folks well into the 80s, if not later. Confederate flags were not a rare sight there, both in town and in the country.
It's frustrating. We can't rely on the Democratic party to serve our interests anymore. Running on the promise of being marginally better than their opponents isn't enough, a return to "normalcy" isn't enough.
We need a new party with the weight required to steal the Dem's thunder to represent us
Every time a cis person tells me to calm down and let myself and my community die because the world just won’t accept us yet, I get closer to violence.
Studying history taught me that only way to get rights is to make everyone else's life so hellish, that giving you rights is the preferable alternative to keeping fighting you.
It just. It blows my mind at this point.
I genuinely think that anyone not ready to fight for trans rights instead of 'building a case for' them doesn't actually believe in them, and I wouldn't want to ever say that of people, but like... it's the only thing that makes sense at this point?!
It's the same as when gay marriage was legalized in Canada. Hair pulling, whining and crying the day before. Shortly after it's barely a blip in conversation.
Just like all the people complaining about optics of protests, while at the same time, those movements have a far larger approval rating than MLKs rallies ever did
also they aren't advocating for winning people over or slowly building the case. They're advocating for capitulating and hoping rights simply manifest from nothing eventually
No but this cause I remember seeing it once and being like Oh the year for interaccial marriage is in the 60's okay makes sense that in the 60's people were becoming cooler with wait they didn't approve of it until the 90's, 30 years of it being LEGAL before people actually said "yeah its cool"
Shockingly people being exposed to the reality of a harmless/positive thing demonized for political purposes tend to have that negative misperception broken.
America’s most successful brainwashing campaign was convincing the public that democrats were the reason people had rights and not years of people screaming demanding to be treated like humans
My Grandfather lied to a judge about his race to marry my Grandmother. This was 1963, a year before my dad was born. And this was about him being Lenape.
I honestly suspect the reported numbers now, and wonder how many respondents answered in a guilty way based on how they thought others thought they should answer.
Because there is a huge faction trying to do away with that guilt right now.
It's weird to me because social change does take time, and yet people were fighting tooth and nail at every step. If slow progress happens when you fight at full strength, why the hell would anyone think giving any less is a good idea?
IIRC public approval of interracial marriage didn't top 50% till the 90s.
Which is the point. If you wait for majority approval of human rights for a minority before legally protecting them, we'll never be getting those rights.
On top of this, public opinion should not override expertise when it comes to scientific fields and stuff like medical care. 99% of people do not have the years of study required to make an informed opinion about complex topics where simple, short term solutions simply do not exist.
The right has basically made science itself a culture war issue because the science kept debunking all of their claims, and the result is that the guy leading the HHS doesn’t believe in fucking germ theory. They will abandon the very laws of reality before abandoning conservatism.
you do not actually win fights by avoiding conflict. you win fights by fighting.
people hyperfocus on persuading individual people over an undetermined amount of time to gain rights not because it's effective, but because it avoids conflict, because it keeps things quiet and "peaceful".
not to mention there are several issues where people have already won the persuasion wars years ago, but getting politicians to follow on any of that is like pulling teeth. support for weed legalization from dem leadership is tepid at best, and they abandon $15 MW support quickly anytime it comes up
Weed is such an instructive example. There exists widespread support, it’s already law across much of the country, there’s effectively no political downside, and it’s seemingly inevitable, yet they won’t just do it for *reasons*.
my favorite example though is the public option. when M4A was in the headlines, we were told by the Very Serious People that the public option was more popular, more able to pass, more realistic.
also: how much BETTER would the numbers be for an issue if a major political party was fully and loudly on the side of that issue - a public option still polls at about 70% in favor despite dems basically abandoning it in the last 4 years.
At least make the fuckers put their name down openly as unwilling to vote to save their constitutents lives make it
visible and then primary them based on it
i remember when student debt was the convo and people were going "wouldn't it be better, like, a compromise to set interest at zero percent" and i was just. okay. let's say that's a good position.
who the fuck do you know of that is fighting tooth and nail for that position?
a position needs support to be enacted and everyone treats all these 'moderate' positions no one is actively fighting to enact as being more reasonable, more passable.
it needs actual support and investment to pass! basically nobody in the dems support it as anything but a way to shut down M4A!!!
We have two political parties in the US: the conservative party, and the fascist party. One wants to keep everything the same, the other wants to make everything worse.
People have the understanding that the greater political powers will not help us so the only vague justice we can ever hope to see for the casual cruelty in everyday life are lone actors like Luigi.
The thing about the liberal demand for compromise this that only the people that want to actually, ya know, DO anything are the ones that have to compromise. It's a shush with words glued on.
there are very few people who tell you to compromise who are actually gonna fight for that compromise. the vast majority are just telling you that stuff to 1. get you to shut up and 2. hope the problem just goes away on its own.
not a lot of people who firmly stand their ground at a midway point.
That's centrists for you: constantly berating the left (never the right), always saying "you people can't always have it your way" (nm that we never do), and when you ask them what position they would work for, it gets real uncomfortable.
unbending faith in the 'moral arc of history' insofar as it means they never have to do or think about anything uncomfortable. to the liberal view, any group that deserves rights will inevitably get them if they're patient -- and if they don't, well,
It pisses me off that conservatives and fascists can run on unhinged platforms that make no political/economic/social/practical sense and then when they get elected they follow through on it and everyone acts surprised
I want some of that action. I want liberals with balls
Also, a lot of the time, those same people are completely unaware of how much work HAS been done quietly, softly, with care. They act like nothing was being done before the moment the work becomes loud and harsh
I feel like we were doing the "slowly build the case for rights" thing for decades and now the rights are being taken away *very very quickly* and, wait why are we supposed to move slower than the actual ongoing events, or our opponents
it feels this way with SO much stuff like the rightwing mediasphere/billionaire set saw things tipping one way in the mid to late 2010s and put their thumbs on the scale and now everything from trans rights to MeToo is getting just endless pushback by 24 hour cable news & endless podcasts
and zero mention from either of the two about the right wing propaganda machine that drove the backslide, instead spending a huge amount of the interview talking about social media bullshit
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loving was in 1967, interracial marriage approval passed 50% in 1995. it took 2 generations of it being legal for a slight majority of people to approve of it.
Seems like it would have, but I can count on one hand the number of interracial couples I know personally, and all of them have mentioned getting weird looks from strangers.
Trans rights are human rights.
Everyone should have their human rights respected.
We need a new party with the weight required to steal the Dem's thunder to represent us
I genuinely think that anyone not ready to fight for trans rights instead of 'building a case for' them doesn't actually believe in them, and I wouldn't want to ever say that of people, but like... it's the only thing that makes sense at this point?!
"1990, 23 years after it was legalized nationwide."
Republicans know how to move the numbers.
All Democrats know how to do is chase the numbers.
Yours truly, Mr. Space Alien.
Because there is a huge faction trying to do away with that guilt right now.
The rate might start dropping, precipitously.
Which is the point. If you wait for majority approval of human rights for a minority before legally protecting them, we'll never be getting those rights.
what’s right is rarely what’s popular. any ethical person or organization shouldn’t be waiting for something to be popular
people hyperfocus on persuading individual people over an undetermined amount of time to gain rights not because it's effective, but because it avoids conflict, because it keeps things quiet and "peaceful".
it disappeared entirely after the 2020 election. even in rhetoric. https://kffhealthnews.org/news/article/health-202-biden-public-option-health-insurance/
visible and then primary them based on it
it's quite another to *never publicly talk about your supposedly popular idea that you swear you really do care a lot about ever again*.
for the public option, the supposedly popular alternative to M4A that we were told we should support instead, dems... never mention it again. hm!
yes, it's a compromise position that could pass, & yes, if passed it would be so popular private insurance could be dissolved within a decade
no one supports it!
who the fuck do you know of that is fighting tooth and nail for that position?
even the Warren type position of "but we don't want rich people to abuse free college by letting their kids go!"
name one billionaire sending their kid to state school, which I think would actually be good both for their kid personally and society holistically
it needs actual support and investment to pass! basically nobody in the dems support it as anything but a way to shut down M4A!!!
One of the side effects of dodging any sort of primary in 2024 is that there was absolutely zero need for democrats to cater to anyone but the right.
and the moment they win, they stop even mentioning that compromise they told you to accept, much less fight for it.
doesn't leave a good taste in the mouth.
not a lot of people who firmly stand their ground at a midway point.
I want some of that action. I want liberals with balls
I think every approval metric for trans rights crossed that a while ago
Shoveling billions of dollars into anti trans propaganda over the course of several years also did serious work.