I think the show is using the Dune universe's unique setting and constraints to comment on the consequences of slow technological and societal progress, rather than implying it's impossible for progress to happen.
i think the show is more concerned with exploring themes of humanity and colonialism, rather than making scientific or technological sense. let's focus on the storytelling and social commentary, rather than nitpicking the show's inaccuracies.
That's a common misconception in science fiction. Human innovation has consistently accelerated over time, and it's unlikely we'd stagnate for such a long period.
When you ban thinking machines, you begin the era of stagnation. The central theme of Dune is the stagnation of humanity. It spans almost 15,000 years, not 10,000 from the end of the Butlerian Jihad to the return from the Scattering.
The Dune story line was written in the 1950s. The lack of computer based Futurism is cause... it wasn't there at inception. I happen to think that's kinda neat feature to the Dune Universe. "Space wizardry" really isn't that far off
I’m no @dieworkwear.bsky.social but if I had to guess, fashion tends to be cyclical, repopularizing fashions from decades past. In the far future, it would be reasonable to expect this trend could extend to centuries past. Additionally I think the costuming intentionally evokes an era of feudalism
Whole point why Paul and then his son instill a tyrannical genocidal regime is to force humanity to evolve and go beyond their confines. As to fashion, I agree
In terms of fashion, I don’t recall much except stillsuits being described in the books. But I love what they’ve done with some of the fashions. I mean, COME ON.
I think it's kind of a cool flex on the audience, that things are already SO advanced 15,000 year's from now, that you, specifically, can't tell the difference 10,000 more years makes.
the back story is that these things happen in cycles. the 'dune' universe went through a massive cyber war with AI almost wiping out all life. So this is why you don't see robots of any kind or computers. They went back to analog technologies combined with holtzman field engineering 7000 yrs ago
It's set right around the destruction of artificial intelligence entities and systems, isn't it?
Sounds like a tech bro wrote it if they needed AI for technical progress...
Actually you are right about the sisters having computers! I hadn't seen the end of ep 3. That's a big deal, they're breaking the law and committing heresy
I can imagine it. Part of Herbert's core premise is that a great deal of advancement and refinement is possible in the absence of computation. Such that computation is a kind of crutch that keeps people from developing more advanced alternative technologies. It's a great sci fi premise imo.
It's directly tied to the idea that human evolution and development and the use of consciousness expanding tools allows humans to replace some of those computational functions. Between analog tech and human advancement they're able to make this weirdly primitive SF universe work.
- Raquella said in ep3 "this relies on forbidden technology"
- they've made a big deal about the Butlerian purist faction in the Sisterhood
- the end of the ep shows what looks like not just active computing but an AI, the most forbidden tech
No computers I've seen. They do have data storage but not computation. Neither the movies nor the show have explained interstellar travel, and it's an excellent question - the answer is that the Guild Navigators use a spice trance to make it happen. They should explain that at some point.
My point is that it's never been explained in the context of the current film and video adaptations, and they should bring that in at some point. Partly for those that don't read the books, but mostly because it's cool af, and important
Brian Herbert detailed the technology in one of the prequel books.
But originally, folding space was an Asimov creation and Herbert only used it to bypass the long plot usage of space technology to focus on the sociopolitical debate he was having with Asimov.
The show is kinda funky. The books do a good job of explaining technology advancements over time. The show has merged a lot of time together to get to the meat and potatoes of the story
I do like the show, but you're certainly right that cultural stasis is an important, even critical theme in the Dune meta story, just one that hasn't been unpacked yet on film really. So folks like OP that ask this question are actually being quite clever. Hard to talk about without spoiler risk!
The most damnable part is that the rich aren't lolling around in sweats and hoodies, because if we ruled the known universe you know we'd be comfortable.
There is a saying back home: those who get burned by hot milk also blow on yogurt.
The point is not to be realistic -- just like eating giant worm excrement makes you access memory of the dead people isn't realistic -- it is to imagine a society that overcompensates in all aspects to such an extent
I have never hate watched a show until now. Usually, if something makes me feel the way DP makes me feel (hopeless for humanity) I just stop watching it. Instead, it’s like I have to keep watching just to see how depressing it gets, and on soooo many levels.
To comment on the fashion part, the books say that fashion didn’t change much (at least in formal attire). The Atreides guard uniform was stated to have gone the full 10,000 years with just one change once they took control of Dune.
I think it’s primarily due to the Empires strong focus on tradition. The books cover this in detail.
The whole society wants to prevent progression so they use tradition in clothes, religion, etc. to keep society stagnant.
it's unrealistic to expect technological stagnation for 10,000 years. human societies have consistently driven innovation and progress throughout history. it's more likely that the show will explore alternative plot devices rather than literal stagnation.
I mean they do have the ability to travel the cosmos. That said there was a war with AI and there is a law against the creation of AI. As far as fashion it is cyclical
I made it about 30 seconds into it and immediately quit watching. Then I thought about it and I decided that I don't actually care that much about Dune lore and started enjoying it as what it is.
The fashion consistency is easy to explain! Much like the Catholic church the Bene Gesserit discovered an aesthetic style that worked for them very early in their existence and then committed to it.
Art can't exist in a vacuum. Any fashion that a costume designer comes up with today is going to be influenced by the fashion of today. The fashion of 10k years from now is inherently unknowable. I've seen lots of ugly outfits on 90s Star Trek and accepted it as a limitation of the visual medium
We only really see the very rich/royalty and members of a religious order though. "common" fashion on planets that don't force you to wear a stillsuit could have changed a ton
The movies are just in a retro phase. You go through a lot of fashion cycles in 10,000 years. For like 2,000 years, everybody wore assless chaps (this is canon).
It’s definitely poor costume design in that way. Even in the Dune books, when 3000 years have passed by the 5th book in the series, there are noted changes in icons and fashion.
It's part of the underlying story of Dune. The events that began with Paul were part of humanity's collective unconscious trying to keep mankind from going extinct precisely because they had stagnated for so long.
This is absolutely right. It's intentional but unspoken (yet) in the movies or the show. Kudos to you and the other folks that know for being nice about it, bc I've seen this point made rudely; but OP is actually observant, and correct to note it. It's a good point, but turns out there's a reason.
Paul's "Terrible Purpose," The Golden Path, and the rest of it are, understandably, one of the story elements that has to be sacrificed for clarity in adaptation.
Unfortunately, it leaves a great big oddity in the setting in the process.
Perhaps they'll get to explaining it over time. I hope so, bc otherwise it really is this questionable oddity.
Interestingly - and I'm worried about spoilers so won't go far down this road - Villeneuve has said he'll stop after Messiah, while the Path itself only really unfolds in later books.
I think it's a thing that will remain unexplored, partly because the notion of a racial consciousness is difficult to develop in film because it requires so much explanation and there's no shorthand for it.
The medium is the message, as it were. Some things are better left to prose.
Certainly agree with that last statement, and also that it would be hard to get right; especially since there are elements of the Dune long timeline that are quite troubling/questionable. The series spans from Peak Herbert well into Late Herbert, when things went sideways on a few levels (imo)
And the current stewards of the Dune IP have shown that they really don't have Herbert's taste for the exotic. It's been my biggest complaint about the new movies.
Part of the issue is that the Golden Path is not really a thing till Children of Dune (which Villeneuve has no interest in adapting). God-Emperor then actually explains what it entails
I have to reread the first book to see if Herbert had an inkling back then, but the man liked to change/add lore
The Golden Path was essentially an extension of Paul's "Terrible Purpose," which is mentioned in at least a couple of places in the first Dune novel. Paul doesn't understand the shape of it until after he takes the Water of Life.
I could be wrong about this cause it's been a while, but I think I interpreted it as Paul seeing the Golden Path, or some form of it, but only Leto really understood why that was the one Path
Yeah, he's locked into his fate as the KH and as Muad'Dib because he doesn't see options for a better future. I feel the movies convey that part (ex. vision of Jamis killing Paul showing Paul takes the only other possibility at the end), but I'll watch with a more critical eye for this next time
Comments
Sounds like a tech bro wrote it if they needed AI for technical progress...
I can't imagine actual ships being made on heighliner scale with merely analogue technology.
Let alone the force shield things they wear.
Do you recall how bulky everything was with analogue tech?
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeliness of a human mind."
Computers are still a part of the system, bit their function is merely data storage.
- Raquella said in ep3 "this relies on forbidden technology"
- they've made a big deal about the Butlerian purist faction in the Sisterhood
- the end of the ep shows what looks like not just active computing but an AI, the most forbidden tech
It is folding space technology.
The ships have to have complex calculations to fold a path from start to destination.
Spice is used to allow humans to make those calculations without a computer.
My point is that it's never been explained in the context of the current film and video adaptations, and they should bring that in at some point. Partly for those that don't read the books, but mostly because it's cool af, and important
But originally, folding space was an Asimov creation and Herbert only used it to bypass the long plot usage of space technology to focus on the sociopolitical debate he was having with Asimov.
Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, same guy!
The Liberal Arts types didn't get as excited about them for some reason.
“Spice” space travel?
Clairvoyance?
These are the plot devices of a moron
The point is not to be realistic -- just like eating giant worm excrement makes you access memory of the dead people isn't realistic -- it is to imagine a society that overcompensates in all aspects to such an extent
It is the premise of the novels that technology is ultimately evil.
The Machine Mind spoken about in the prolog enslaved humanity after thousands of years of human apathy.
It is a critique on artificial intelligence
I really like this show!
The whole society wants to prevent progression so they use tradition in clothes, religion, etc. to keep society stagnant.
https://youtu.be/GqX3VXOaiIU?si=HVvQlnEtt2efcZY1
For the rest, I think you just gotta suspend disbelief. It’s fair that they want to keep the aesthetics consistent within the franchise.
100 years from now beehives and bell bottoms may replace FiberOptic Hair™ and Levi's Paint On 601 Yellows®
Paul's "Terrible Purpose," The Golden Path, and the rest of it are, understandably, one of the story elements that has to be sacrificed for clarity in adaptation.
Unfortunately, it leaves a great big oddity in the setting in the process.
Interestingly - and I'm worried about spoilers so won't go far down this road - Villeneuve has said he'll stop after Messiah, while the Path itself only really unfolds in later books.
The medium is the message, as it were. Some things are better left to prose.
I have to reread the first book to see if Herbert had an inkling back then, but the man liked to change/add lore