I spend way too much time flailing over invites that include "please tell us what you want us to pay you." So, hivemind, what would you expect ME to charge for an hour-long, in-person talk at: a) a public library b) a university c) a game convention - ThreadSky

elizhargrave.bsky.social • 558 days ago

I spend way too much time flailing over invites that include "please tell us what you want us to pay you." So, hivemind, what would you expect ME to charge for an hour-long, in-person talk at:

a) a public library
b) a university
c) a game convention

Comments

glenngiven.bsky.social•558 days ago

a) local libraries are national treasures I would suggest free or nearly free if there is no meaningful travel
b & c) $2500 + travel expenses?

gregisonthego.bsky.social•558 days ago

Seconded

beebrookshire.bsky.social•558 days ago

Unfortunately, it's part of our jobs, right. I love libraries and educational institutions but I need to eat.

I also should note that I've never gotten $2500 for a workshop or talk. Sometimes, when I ask for $1000 or more, invitations get rescinded.

This has never happened to my male colleagues.

glenngiven.bsky.social•558 days ago

If it is any consolation I've also had offers rescinded when I've asked for travel stipends or in a few cases ANY payment. it's a brutal grind. Get from those who can afford it and give to those you love but who can't afford it; if you can swing it.

glenngiven.bsky.social•558 days ago

lol, I've never gotten that either, I based my guestimates on what I pay artists for their time when I have them do work for me or a public presentation and then multiplied it by Elizabeth's pedigree (?) as a proven innovative designer AND designer of "blockbuster" successes.

glenngiven.bsky.social•558 days ago

I'd expect something like a PAX, GenCon or Essen keynote to be paying above $2K. If anything I think she is in position to demand higher because of being the current most notable woman designer in boardgames. it's, sadly, rare because the hobby skews so male and that has bargaining value.

beebrookshire.bsky.social•558 days ago

Ah but see not all talks are keynotes.

I'd want to know what they pay their men for various talks of various types, ask for that. Unfortunately that info is SO hard to get.

beebrookshire.bsky.social•558 days ago

It's all so fuzzy right, no one talks about it, the truly big dogs get $10K for a talk, but they'll never tell you out loud.

It's a weird convergence of not talking about money, and the fact that in this context money literally = fame and merit

beebrookshire.bsky.social•558 days ago

I am obviously not as cool or famous as Elizabeth who is an ICON.

But I will say that often what men in my profession say they can demand is 2-3 times what I can.

People often ask women to talk assuming they are the "cheaper" option.

beebrookshire.bsky.social•558 days ago

Also, panels for Sci-fi/Fantasy cons? Like DragonCon, Awesome Con?

I don't get paid at all, no travel, nothing. 8 panels in four days. I do it for the love.

glenngiven.bsky.social•558 days ago

i feel this. I wish the "do what you love as work" wasn't a constant battle with remembering to fight for compensation whenever possible.

digitalcuttlefish.bsky.social•558 days ago

I got a $1000 offer once, accepted, had a panic attack, begged out (they were cool about it)… and then the conference was canceled (not my fault!). Other than that, all (both) my talks have been free (minor swag bags both times).

davidbock.bsky.social•558 days ago

Whatever makes it worth the trouble to you. Whether $5 or $5000, it depends on what you’re comfortable with.

rericreuss.bsky.social•558 days ago

I don't know what I'd expect you to charge, but I can give how I figure what *I'll* charge? (Or "am willing to accept", if a concrete offer is made.)

Baseline: travel expenses + lodgings + admission.

Add: hourly rate for prep-time + actual talk. (And maybe time made unusable due to travel.)

(1/X)

rericreuss.bsky.social•558 days ago

Add: stress-factor. Is needing to present going to overshadow my enjoyment of the event? Is an extra trip going to make my schedule over-full? This is entirely subjective!

Subtract: convenience. Was I going to this con anyhow? I might drop up to 100% of travel and/or lodgings.

(2/X)

rericreuss.bsky.social•558 days ago

Subtract: intrinsic reward. Is this something I'd like to prioritize because I think it's going to be good for the industry, or society, or be fulfilling/rewarding in some other non-monetary-way? Does it sound like actual fun? Also entirely subjective.

(3/X)

rericreuss.bsky.social•558 days ago

In particular, the subjective factors mean that my pricing will vary a LOT.

(And practically, I've had to turn down most requests due to parenting - or ask for extra sitting expenses atop all of the above, which tends to result in "sorry, no way" pricing.)

(4/X)

rericreuss.bsky.social•558 days ago

In practice, I've found universities seem to have the best handle on compensating for the time and attention of traveling to present; they've generally offered travel + lodging + food + around $1,000 (+/- 50%). I'd hope offers for you are higher, you're more famous / in more demand?

(5/X)

rericreuss.bsky.social•558 days ago

But I wonder if they're asking you to name a price because they're not sure *how* in-demand you are, and they don't want to accidentally pay an order of magnitude more money than needed (speaking fees can get super-high for sufficiently famous people).

(6/X)

biffybeans.bsky.social•558 days ago

I had a mentor who told me to respond with something along the lines of “what is your budget for this type of event?” So then maybe you’ll do a localish library for $450 and a cross country private university for $5000.

biffybeans.bsky.social•558 days ago

Do you use a booking agent? There’s more to consider than just the time for the talk though… travel, accommodations, Uber… not sure if it’s reasonable to have a flat fee in mind- esp. when some places are non-profit, are funded by grants, or corp. sponsored. You might need a variable tier system.

elizhargrave.bsky.social•558 days ago

I don't have a booking agent, maybe I should look into it. I'm not that interested in making a thing of speaking but wow, I have a magician friend on the corporate circuit and he gets paid eye-popping amounts. Magic is also more broadly appealing...games are a weird, underfunded niche.

biffybeans.bsky.social•558 days ago

Remind me how many other women game designers have sold 1.5 million copies of 1 game? As a speaker, you’d be marketable to MANY different situations and big $ in that. Imagine going to Apple f/ a talk/team building event.

elizhargrave.bsky.social•557 days ago

Right, it's conceivable, but I don't actually want to spend my time flying around inspiring corporate employees - Id rather be working in my garden and making games.

biffybeans.bsky.social•557 days ago

👏👏👏👏👏 Good! Please do that! I’m in burnout because I didn’t know how to say no to things I really didn’t want to be doing. I only mentioned it on the somewhat unlikely offhand chance you hadn’t considered the potential.

elizhargrave.bsky.social•557 days ago

I am also bad at saying no! A few months ago I made a list of things I definitely won't do (e.g. your 1 scout troop/class) and that has helped a lot.

robinlevins.bsky.social•558 days ago

I wish I had good numbers for you, and would happily defer to others providing that wisdom. On the other aspects of speaking, I love the rider @cassidoo.bsky.social uses & shares - it's more tech-oriented, but I think it would be directly relevant and useful for you!
https://github.com/cassidoo/talks/blob/main/speaker-rider.md

mease19.bsky.social•558 days ago

It depends on who’s asking. An individual teacher or librarian may not have a budget and may already be supplementing their work out of pocket. A library or uni department should have a budget for speakers. A university or convention can’t pay your worth (priceless) but should pay for your time.

alyssagambone.bsky.social•554 days ago

b or c I'd say at least 5-6k. Library is tricker -- not sure how much of a discount is appropriate for a public entity like that.

beebrookshire.bsky.social•558 days ago

....TBH I do the exact same.

Esp because like, this is my livelihood! So I respect libraries and educational institutions but I must eat...

elizhargrave.bsky.social•558 days ago

Luckily royalties are my main income so it's not so much a "I must eat" thing, more of a "I value my time" thing. But that doesn't make it any easier to figure out what to ask for.

wheelerw.bsky.social•558 days ago

Figure out how much your time is worth first! Estimate the prep, travel, and performance time, and make sure the fee breaks down hourly to a level you feel comfortable with.

beebrookshire.bsky.social•558 days ago

I feel that. I usually try to break it down into hourly. So for a web talk that's an hour, I would need probably another hour to pull the talk together (if it's on a subject I know well, it usually is). I value my work time at $125/hour, so that's $250 for the web talk....

beebrookshire.bsky.social•558 days ago

@elizhargrave.bsky.social but for in person, it's not just the hour, and the prep, it's also the lost TIME in travel, not just the travel cost. It's also lunches and email planning and potentially fielding stuff after. So I often charge $1000 for that. Does that help?

beebrookshire.bsky.social•558 days ago

Also I give myself raises sometimes, esp if I'm getting more work, once a year I'll say ok, I have more experience, more work coming in, I can go from $115/hour to $125, etc.

adm7373.bsky.social•558 days ago

a) $1000
b) $2000
c) $5000

thing12games.bsky.social•558 days ago

I’d charge based on their ability.

A: Libraries don’t have tons of money, so that I’d do free.

B: Universities have money and charge a LOT for attendance, so I’d charge the most there.

C: Cons vary. A large con would have more than a small con, so I’d vary it by size of show.

hinokodo.com•558 days ago

a) free - $100
b) $1000+
c) $500+ (w/lodging/food/free ticket to event)

I was reading they don't pay GDC speakers. which is wild. But 'creator of Wingspan' carries so much marketing weight now, you'll get seats. I think university talks should pay for the library talks, and cons for a discount. idk

elizhargrave.bsky.social•558 days ago

I have only been offered cash by one game convention, I think. They all seem to think badge & hotel is reward enough. For most people that is true but I'm enough of an introvert that going to a convention isn't of value in & of itself, to me. It's hard to figure out my personal economics on it all.

colorblindgames.bsky.social•558 days ago

Yeah, it's personal (e.g., some charge high if travel is required because they hate to travel).

Also, you surely get pressure to represent female designers at a discount/pro bono. I'm asked to talk about games accessibility for free & "be grateful for the opportunity."

hinokodo.com•558 days ago

That's so frustrating. Your unique perspective and skills should be given for a premium, not a discount.

You're so right on travel. It's a $500+ flight to some places in the US. They should cover travel at minimum. It should be assumed.

colorblindgames.bsky.social•558 days ago

(As an important "and", I'm a cis, white, affluent, hetro, male. I want to ensure my privilege is as much on display as my side hobby supporting accessibility.)

hinokodo.com•558 days ago

I imagine for most folks, talking at a con is more of a marketing bit. Some folks could spend $1000 on ads or save that, do a talk for free or a meal and reach the same, if not more, passionate folks for the hobby and their games. Charge the introvert tax. Ha! Double it until most folks say no.

emmalarkins.bsky.social•558 days ago

I got paid a stipend for speaking at GDC ($500) but I had to ask. And they were specifically looking to include more women. For the amount of work for their intense standards, and how much money they rake in, and the fact there was no networking (online that year) not really worth it.

emmalarkins.bsky.social•558 days ago

This is such a great question. As far as game conventions go - I've had multiple conversations with the people who run PAX trying to get them to compensate panelists, in part to improve accessibility for speakers. They're not totally opposed but it's hard to move the dial when no one pays.

mikeheadley.bsky.social•558 days ago

In all cases, assuming transport is covered.

Library: $300
University: $500
Game convention depends on size but like. If it's a big con like Gencon tack a zero on it.

I have zero insider information or specialist knowledge but your time is valuable.

biffybeans.bsky.social•558 days ago

That’s seriously low. I’d add another zero to each.

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