It is not an overstatement when I say that I could genuinely weep: this is 100% the *exact opposite* of what they need to do: you cannot out-Reform the Reform Party. The only thing this will do is drive more voters to Reform: voters always choose the original. *Every* bit of research shows that. 🧵 - ThreadSky

tanjabueltmann.net • 85 days ago

It is not an overstatement when I say that I could genuinely weep: this is 100% the *exact opposite* of what they need to do: you cannot out-Reform the Reform Party. The only thing this will do is drive more voters to Reform: voters always choose the original. *Every* bit of research shows that. 🧵

Reposted from PoliticsHome

A number of Labour MPs in the North and Midlands have formed a new group called the 'Red Wall Caucus' to fight the rise of Reform UK in their constituencies

The group wants the party to be more vocal about immigration, @siennarodgers.bsky.social & @tomscotson.bsky.social exclusively report

Comments

thatmarkelliott.bsky.social•85 days ago

rmappleby.bsky.social•85 days ago

If they were going to be vocal about how positive immigration can be, and how badly we will need it (given our demographic shift and falling birth rate) then great.

But sadly I don’t think that’s what they mean, is it? ☹️

darksatanicmills.bsky.social•85 days ago

It's also *a bit patronising*

curiouskittyk.bsky.social•85 days ago

On a separate note can I just say it’s so refreshing and frankly uplifting to have a sensible discussion with people with diverse views on a difficult subject. Unlike X where this thread would be entirely overtaken by people just shouting and hurling insults. Thank you ☺️

curiouskittyk.bsky.social•85 days ago

I take a different view, Reform ARE the party of immigration, they won 4 million votes, in a lot places where Labour won Reform were 2nd. The immigration at current levels does place pressures on various aspects of society. We progressives need to start being realistic about the world we live in.🧵👇

curiouskittyk.bsky.social•85 days ago

I agree with everything you say 💯. We know this we see this. Which is why the only way to avoid the worse possible outcomes is to meet this head on. I also agree that Labour needs to find a different approach one that acknowledges the concerns and explains the positive benefits.

curiouskittyk.bsky.social•85 days ago

Look at what’s happening around world with the rise of the far-right ALL because a significant portion of the electorate feel that the governments have lost control of its borders. I think Labour realise this and are trying to get the attention of these people and meet them where they are.

curiouskittyk.bsky.social•85 days ago

I can see why they are doing this. There is absolutely a need for a grownup and realistic conversation about immigration. But it will mean nothing if Labour don’t use their 5 years to address the issues which are currently being blamed on immigration.

philosophical-phil.bsky.social•85 days ago

Agree. Also the original far right agitation was with EU free movement, now we're out we have record levels of immigration from beyond Europe. Immigration has changed in character and quantity since - oddly - we became isolationist. What do people want?

curiouskittyk.bsky.social•85 days ago

Truth is most people don’t think too deeply about things. They react to what they see and observe and what impacts them. Then there’s social media where people get all their news. Which has been co-opted by malign interests. Finally there’s basic human nature which likes to stick within its tribe.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

I don’t wear rosy-eyed glasses and am not suggesting open borders or something. But my problem is this: despite years of immigration talk, the one thing we have absolutely not had at all is a debate on immigration—we’ve just had noise on it. The climate breakdown means that that isn’t an … 1/3

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

… approach that can continue. I am not joking when I say that I can envisage quite dystopian scenes: the world is not prepared for what is coming in terms of migratory movements and this can only get worse the longer populist approaches like the above determine policy. 2/3

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

Being realistic about this to me means the recognition that we’re heading into uncharted territory in terms of scale of migration. We need new ideas. No border wall, no ever more extreme hostility will help / be the answer. 3/3

igz15.bsky.social•85 days ago

Whilst the media remains in the hands of the right wing billionaire’s this won’t happen. Look how much air time Farage gets, compared to the greens or Lib Dem’

verityplayer.bsky.social•85 days ago

Hear hear!

heatherpmuir.bsky.social•85 days ago

So true, non-refomers need to put forward plans that will improve people's lives via tackling inequality rather than relying on trickle down economics and being honest that it is greed that is the root cause and not migrants

philg42.bsky.social•85 days ago

They need to keep reminding people of what Reform actually stands for. To show how vile the whole concept of bringing Trump politics to the UK really is. To show what the Labour alternative is. Go hard against right wing extremists not hard for them.

kyranature.bsky.social•85 days ago

Idiots!

celronmiles.bsky.social•85 days ago

What we need is not anti immigration, and we don't need a gov that will just ignore the issues. But the issue is not immigrants coming in to steal jobs. The issue is how to mobilise EVERYONE in the country to work. Immigrants or not. We need workers for a good economy to happen

screaming-alice.bsky.social•85 days ago

Where I wish labour had done things differently was post-corbyn. Rather than build on and nurture the enthusiasm there was among the young at that time, they lurched to the right, trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

endofmeoldcigar.bsky.social•85 days ago

I remember making that very point to one of the champions of the ‘drive out the Left’ campaign - ‘these young are just entryist wannabe trots; we don’t need or want them’. Kinnock/NL legacy thinking. It was a tragedy and a strategic misstep.

jaydeekay.bsky.social•85 days ago

The Reform party is a low rent version of the British Union of Fascists, and Farage is a discount version of Oswald Mosley, so trying to be more fascist than the fascists is NOT a good strategy.

martynomad.bsky.social•85 days ago

Agreed.
Being as strident as the dogwhistling fundamentalists will merely grant legitimacy to the extremism that Reform uses to gain headlines and dominate the agenda.

partyofwalefan.bsky.social•84 days ago

BREAKING

The Party of Wales lead in new Welsh Parliament @SeneddWales Poll.

Buy local to keep the money in #Wales to pay for more #NHS staff and cut waiting times for operations.

For ambition,for fairness, for Wales 🗳️Party of Wales

https://nation.cymru/news/plaid-cymru-leads-new-senedd-poll-with-conservatives-in-4th-place/

antifacog.bsky.social•85 days ago

THIS a million times over!!

chumleyprelude.bsky.social•84 days ago

It's sad, weak & desperate stuff isn't it.
Running scared - but running in exactly the direction Farage & his backers want, just as the Tories did.
Strewth, our politics is shameful these days!
Turn around, face his lies down & take him on - and out!

pwc50.bsky.social•85 days ago

There are alternatives to xenophobic approach of the Tories & the absentee MP for Clacton; would Labour be brave enough?
https://bsky.app/profile/pwc50.bsky.social/post/3lc5wg3adcc2v

strontium90.bsky.social•85 days ago

'Tack to the right' is a discussion to engage with in a broad-church party. 'Embrace fascism' is not.

paultjknowles.bsky.social•85 days ago

Your analysis completely omits the voices of the people you are talking about. Have you ever even spoken to people in redwall seats?

jojowiththeflow.bsky.social•85 days ago

It's not omitted, though? Bit disappointing considering your bio

paultjknowles.bsky.social•85 days ago

I'm an internationalist and basically pro-immigration. But that's me. Not everybody shares my worldview.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

It would be good if I could be judged on what my thread is about rather than an assumption about the omission of something the thread is not about. And I have spoken to many of them—not that I need to actually justify that, but to stress that assumptions about people are not helpful either.

paultjknowles.bsky.social•85 days ago

In your thread you say that if you improved the lives of people who vote reform they would stop being anti-immigrant. But a lot of these voters would tell you that not having immigrants in their community would improve their lives. Not a view I share but we can't just dismiss it.

paultjknowles.bsky.social•85 days ago

Basically your claim is taking their anti-immigrant seriously makes them more likely to vote reform. The evidence in the rise of populism, brexit and Trump suggests the opposite. As does Labours approach that won the last ge.

andraswf.bsky.social•85 days ago

Well if they think forrins are bad, they can fuck off honestly

peterlanders.bsky.social•85 days ago

Totally right, you don’t fight bad people by pretending to be bad too. You fight darkness with light not more darkness. Organise but don’t legitimise.

jennyhurley.bsky.social•85 days ago

I’m very disappointed at how politically inept they are. Their inexperience shows with every decision they make.

drmegalomaniac.bsky.social•85 days ago

You’re spot on. I dont get why they cant see it, I can only assume its wilful at this point. https://bsky.app/profile/drmegalomaniac.bsky.social/post/3laf4uy5eiy2w

rajtham.bsky.social•85 days ago

@jysexton.bsky.social - as we discussed!

rajtham.bsky.social•85 days ago

@tanjabueltmann.net - pls chat with @anatosaurus.bsky.social

She has insider experience of how this strategy failed in the USA too

Labour decision makers seem to have a profound commitment to #strategicignorance

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/trump-harris-democrats-electoral-problem-neoliberalism-1235176879/

roadman5.bsky.social•85 days ago

True

ianburton.bsky.social•85 days ago

Yes it looks like they are happy to accept ultra right wing views instead of opposing them. This is typical Starmer tactics. Moving everyone to the right.

mysteryhour.bsky.social•84 days ago

Why why why don’t you listen to the real concerns and lived experience of how mass immigration has affected ordinary people? No point sneering at things you refuse to understand, dear.

kindofnorthern.bsky.social•85 days ago

Have they not learned anything from rest of Europe?

ropenfold.bsky.social•85 days ago

I despair. The tories are giving this move further to the right to get reform voters back and it doesn't work. Build a caucus around a more positive narrative and invest in local communities, build trust locally and voters will trust you nationally. It's not rocket science.

wildkippers.bsky.social•85 days ago

Labour have lost sight of their raison d’etre … They are trying to counter the right by moving further right rather than doing fundamental work around more enlightened voters / citizens .. It’s doomed ..

philipjtaylor.bsky.social•85 days ago

Not a day passes without me being glad I left Labour.

goatsarah.org•85 days ago

“Those guys are right. Don’t vote for them!”

debatingroom.bsky.social•85 days ago

We saw much the same with Corbyn offering Brexit-lite.
There are no compromises with far-right ideology built upon hate and disinformation. They have to be challenged head on.

hengymrohebwlad.bsky.social•85 days ago

Corbyn didn't offer "Brexit lite". He endorsed *Hard Brexit* i.e. no single market/customs union, because he rejected EU Freedom of Movement, exactly the same as Theresa May's policy from 2017 onwards. So that's at least one Corbyn policy that Starmer continues to endorse.

trevor0257.bsky.social•84 days ago

The answer is PR. Contain them.

margaretgearydwyer.bsky.social•85 days ago

I doubt if they care. They supported Starmers cull of the chronically ill and disabled no depths they won't sink to. 😡

stevieinselby.bsky.social•85 days ago

Totally.
There is no way Labour will ever out-Farage Farage.
Every time they echo his talking points it just gives them credence, and gives him an excuse to move even further to the right and drag the overton window with him.

msmitham.bsky.social•85 days ago

I suppose being vocal about immigration could mean two opposing things. Vocal about the benefits (which is how I read this the first time I saw it) would be a great counterpoint to the acid we're swimming through at the moment. Vocally opposed would be stupidly catastrophic.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

Why why why can politicians never ever listen? The solution here is to build resilience against anti-immigrant rhetoric and to improve people’s lives in these communities. Labour are doing neither and this is why I maintain they are actively paving the way for a Reform Government.

countrywol.bsky.social•85 days ago

I am of the opinion that by not fixing problems locally, especially schools, housing and healthcare, it'll let in that nice man off the telly. I have not heard or seen one commentator articulate this. Why is this the case?

kathrinluddecke.bsky.social•85 days ago

I totally agree and continue to be dismayed by their poor tactics - the voters did better in July!

goatsarah.org•85 days ago

I want to scream this from the rooftops too. They’re bloody all guilty of it too. Lib Dems also infected by the same addiction to empowering the hard right by constantly telling everyone that the hard right is correct, and being surprised when people believe them.

WHY ARE THEY LIKE THIS?

pascalr57.bsky.social•85 days ago

Spot on Tanja.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

As I’ve said before: I do not say this lightly… JFC this is enraging. Many academics and community groups can help Labour with addressing these issues. Instead they use WhatsApp groups to choose the worst possible response. Labour deserve the result, but the harm will be real not just for them! /end

kathrinluddecke.bsky.social•85 days ago

@anneliesedodds.bsky.social please listen - @teamlabouruk.bsky.social

stewch.bsky.social•85 days ago

Yes please listen.

kathrinluddecke.bsky.social•85 days ago

I'm so appalled, as a migrant myself and a German - appeasement of people who scapegoat others is never to turn out well! Can't believe the British have forgotten that.

kathrinluddecke.bsky.social•85 days ago

...never going to...

kman68.bsky.social•85 days ago

And before you know it, Labour MPs are talking about restrictions on abortion to pander to apparent Reform voters concerns.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

PS: Allow me to add in this context that it’s really important to recognise too that Labour are not a centre-left party. Some Labour MPs still are, for sure. The party is not though. Centre-right generally but on immigration very clearly hard right and happy to pander to far right talking points.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

This too I don’t say lightly. But it really matters because for however long Labour continue to do that, they will offer and choose the wrong solution. That will backfire form them, but also means that we’ll never get to policies that actually help / make lives in communities better.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

Approaches focused on immigrants as “the other” and a threat are just a cop-out — the easy option. What choosing that approach means though is that the real root-causes of problems in communities are never addressed because they are not even being considered in the first place.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

So you end up with a never-ending cycle as the actual problems are not being solved … and that’s why we start all over again with a focus on immigrants as “the other”. Brexit is your ultimate case in point for this and look where that got us. And still nobody has learnt a thing.

/endPS

wissewords.bsky.social•85 days ago

They're not interested in doing any of this, they want to do flag shagging and crackdowns.

Labour is not interested in reversing Tory migration policy, they want to double down.

They're not making a mistake, they're as evil as Reform.

retroid.bsky.social•85 days ago

Agreed: You promote far-right talking points, the far-right gets more votes.

They don't vote for you.

So far as the Kippers are concerned Labour are far-left and will NEVER get their vote.

hmann07.bsky.social•85 days ago

We need a pro-migration narrative and move to more humanising language.

julie1176.bsky.social•84 days ago

How about reforming the voting system? Yes, Reform would get more seats, but they'd never get a majority that people didn't vote for, unlike the Tories and Labour.

millersbob.bsky.social•85 days ago

Neo liberals once again treading the wrong path...🙄...just remember, they know best.....🤷‍♂️🤣

sonalidb.bsky.social•85 days ago

Remember how the labour right poured scorn on Corbyn for visiting refugee camps in Calais? Unfortunately I think they are just more sympathetic to the politics of Reform

sijavaissu.bsky.social•85 days ago

Aaagh! This is so depressing. I really thought we'd turned a corner with a Labour victory at the GE, I fear we've ended up with more of the same divisive, failed politics. I, too, weep.

deancheviotview.bsky.social•85 days ago

Tbf I thought Lab's, otherwise inexplicable, brexit red lines were a strong indication of their direction of travel.

anna-marie.bsky.social•85 days ago

Not just on Brexit, but on things like Freeports, too. Seemed keen on following many bad Tory policies.

deancheviotview.bsky.social•85 days ago

It's bizarre. You'd have thought the Cons result in the GE would have suggested that trying to out reform Reform isn't going to work, but apparently not.

sijavaissu.bsky.social•85 days ago

Not just bad, but mad. And if they capitulate to Trump in any way the consequences will be truly dire.

deancheviotview.bsky.social•85 days ago

From an LD perspective I suppose I ought to be pleased as we're likely to gain some of the more progressive Lab vote, but I can't find much comfort in knowing that.

anna-marie.bsky.social•85 days ago

Labour were the lesser of two evils. More of the same policies but with less of the corruption and ineptitude of what the Tories have become. They have taken for granted the votes of those who wanted to GTTO, without ever considering concerns and what matters to these voters. Who do Labour work for?

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

I never thought that, I have to say. But this is worse than what I expected.

dab13rp.bsky.social•85 days ago

That labour are just another shower of tory liars is a hard one to swallow, but more and more of us in Scotland have reached that conclusion. They can’t be trusted.
The McCrone report - buried for 30 years.
1979 Devolution Ref - derailed by undemocratic amendment (Robin Cook)
All those PFI projects.

philsbodydouble.bsky.social•85 days ago

I think you are absolutely right, but sadly they are following orders from Starmer's new Chief of Staff, McSweeney. And so is Starmer by the looks of yesterdays emergency press conference after the latest immigration figures were released.

https://www.gbnews.com/politics/nigel-farage-labour-reform-uk-keir-starmer-immigration

csav55.bsky.social•85 days ago

You're quoting GB news, you've zero evidence to back this up.

philsbodydouble.bsky.social•85 days ago

The lesser of 2 evils. If you Google you can also find it in Starmer's new BFF the Sun, that he has given plenty of interviews in recently - even some exclusives - after becoming close to Murdoch.

1

philsbodydouble.bsky.social•85 days ago

And I'd say this latest from Tanja & Starmer's speech yesterday - plus Mr Protector of FoM now refusing a YMS because that is boo hiss FoM accordibg to him (it really isn't) and that is a red line now is imo good circumstancial evidence.

2

csav55.bsky.social•85 days ago

Tbh I'm not really following what you're saying here, a lot of words but none of them making much sense. Bye.

philsbodydouble.bsky.social•85 days ago

Look, I don't think Starmer is bad, or a Tory, or anything like that. But I do think he gets his tactics in Brexit and immigration very wrong.

And I do think part of that is because he gets / listens to the wrong advice.

3/3

philsbodydouble.bsky.social•85 days ago

I had to get this of my chest yesterday, and came to the same conclusion only Farage will benefit.

https://bsky.app/profile/philsbodydouble.bsky.social/post/3lc3ghaj73s2e

mrsvsmegma.bsky.social•84 days ago

Spot on Phil. They are literally making the case for Reform. Foolish in the extreme because the audience they are playing to will go to the authentic version not the tribute act. Exactly the same as their approach to Brexshit. Anyone expecting improvement in EU relations is seeking unicorns

martak1959.bsky.social•85 days ago

I totally agree. Stop normalising by aping the bad behaviours. Do better Labour

jameselsender.bsky.social•84 days ago

Wait, they didn't mean be more vocal about the truth and positives of migration...!?

hamos1977.bsky.social•85 days ago

Left-wing partied will never, ever, outperform right-wing ones on social conservativism.

It should be so obvious, that it beggars belief that Labour are unable (or unwilling) to appreciate it.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

Labour are not a left wing party; on immigration their policies reflect far right talking points. It is absolutely vital too that this is recognised.

hamos1977.bsky.social•85 days ago

They definitely aren't with the current leadership.

I was referring to the party in the historical sense.

philwebber.bsky.social•85 days ago

Moving right to beat the right on 'immigration etc' - a failing strategy at the outset.

rickyscarff.bsky.social•84 days ago

Provide an alternative that sane people can migrate to. I will say though that the rise of Reform is great for Scotland as it will drive most people away from UK politics and into the Independence movement as we can surely do better than right wing xenophobic politics.

neillovatt.bsky.social•84 days ago

Do you think Scots support more immigration?

I do, I supports lots and lots and lots of it, but I know I’m in a very small minority here.

mysteryhour.bsky.social•84 days ago

Ah the Scottish Nationalists. Party of anti-English racists.

rickyscarff.bsky.social•84 days ago

Lot of rubbish. We're all Jock Tamsons bairns.

lizjeeves.bsky.social•85 days ago

Unfortunately very true. Lack of critical thinking and unhappy lives. Views entrenched.

gw53.bsky.social•85 days ago

👏👏👏

justinleeanderson.com•85 days ago

Yeah, you can’t fight ignorance by repeating it.

clearlight.bsky.social•85 days ago

What seems to work best around here (Wirral) to stop the rise of the far right is to support the Greens.

At least on a local level that’s where people disillusioned with Labour are mostly going. Massive swings in many wards .

punshhh.bsky.social•85 days ago

They’re trying to keep left leaning voters,who don’t want small state,&a private health service. But do want something done about immigration.The EU is doing the same.
I’m not saying it will work,but to champion immigration at the moment will push those people into the hands of right wing party’s.

tanjabueltmann.net•85 days ago

The EU are doing the same, yes. But mainly because nobody can be bothered to do what’s right but harder—being anti-immigrant is easy. But this is simply not a sustainable approach, the climate emergency will make sure of that. I cannot overstate how much I think it matters that positions change.

punshhh.bsky.social•85 days ago

Yes, I know. To address legitimate concerns over immigration without demonising, or othering immigrants. Mariella Frostrup highlighted this on questiontime.
https://bsky.app/profile/bestforbritain.bsky.social/post/3lc227pskxs2e

glostermeteor.bsky.social•77 days ago

Yep falling into the same exact trap as the Tories

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