LONG THREAD: Okay, let's break down a few things, both about ID cards and Labour's ill-advised tactics on "fighting Reform". First off, I personally don't think ID cards would work in UK, because we are objectively bad at things like this, but they work elsewhere so this isn't about them per se. 1/ - ThreadSky

danielsohege.bsky.social • 12 days ago

LONG THREAD: Okay, let's break down a few things, both about ID cards and Labour's ill-advised tactics on "fighting Reform".
First off, I personally don't think ID cards would work in UK, because we are objectively bad at things like this, but they work elsewhere so this isn't about them per se. 1/

Reposted from PoliticsHome

Many Labour MPs argue an ID cards policy would be a double boost for Starmer:

Help tackle issues like small boats, fight Reform

Lord Blunkett, who tried to introduce digital ID under Blair, said ministers seem to be "working towards" it

@tomscotson.bsky.social & @siennarodgers.bsky.social report

Comments

chrislyddon.bsky.social•8 days ago

Bigots think that ID cards can and would be used to harass people who look different. That's why the idea keeps coming back.

kc1928.bsky.social•11 days ago

All that makes perfect sense, but they've been roundly rejected as entirely unworkable after many expensive consultations.
There is no central database in the UK from which to start ..

kc1928.bsky.social•11 days ago

.. Neither the NHS, voter's roll, passport office, DVLA, DWP/SSA, Home Office or any other agency has a comprehensive list of UK residents & their status, let alone photographic ID.

Creating a system from scratch would cost billions & would result in another much larger scale Windrush scandal ..

kc1928.bsky.social•11 days ago

Other countries have succeeded with ID cards because they have had systems in place for decades with citizens details collected and stored at birth or first entry into the country.

Building a reliable secure system from nothing for a population of more than 60 million has no precedent.

kevconroy.bsky.social•8 days ago

Oh it’s too hard let’s never start?
That’s the spirit.

I’d give the ONS the job of starting the research and defining how it could work, then talk to Estonia how they went about their digital transformation.

A free, universal ID would be useful to fight fraud, for starters.

danielsohege.bsky.social•8 days ago

I have no particular issues with ID cards, but they are complex to bring in, and costly, and don't really have a huge impact overall. You mentioned Estonia, which currently has a 25% increase in Fraud for example.

kevconroy.bsky.social•8 days ago

The fraud stats are worth a deep dive, especially from the perspective of an electronic ID mechanism. Estonian fraud was pretty low but last year saw a spike in scams - so some improvements clearly needed.

kc1928.bsky.social•8 days ago

Likewise, the theory isn't the issue with ID cards - it's the monumental resources and time required to implement. The last Labour government tried desperately to make ID cards work before accepting any scheme would be too expensive and take decades to complete. Lessons must be learnt from Windrush.

picowlo.bsky.social•12 days ago

Living in Sweden I have an ID card (also my driving licence), and a digital ID linked to my bank, and a digital mailbox where bills, pension docs, tax correspondence etc goes.
The ID is really useful for secure identification online.
I dont see it as a tool to limit immigration though

michalqmk.bsky.social•12 days ago

You'll never succeed in explaining to a Brit that ID cards are a convenience, not a tool of government control.

saintthejase.bsky.social•12 days ago

The problem is the British government will sell that data to an AI company for £2.58

michalqmk.bsky.social•12 days ago

What data?

saintthejase.bsky.social•11 days ago

Clearly you’ve never bothered keeping up with the ID card debate and how the government wants to make it the “everything app”

Come back to us after you have caught up

michalqmk.bsky.social•11 days ago

No, please, explain to me what data the government would get with introduction of ID cards that it does't already have.

saintthejase.bsky.social•12 days ago

Just as with Brexit you couldn’t trust the British government to get it right, you can’t with ID cards.
I’d support an EU ID card over a British one

picowlo.bsky.social•12 days ago

The ID card mostly gets used when I'm picking up a parcel. 🙂

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

Fairly obviously ID cards have zero bearing on small boat crossings. Yes, Reform, and others, like to make claims about people "destroying documents", but this is pretty rare. When people are seen to destroy documents it tends, not always but on the whole, to signify they are being trafficked. 2/

james.fieldleveltech.org•12 days ago

Think the argument is that ID cards make it much easier to police right to work?

No idea how true that is but I think you’re fighting a straw man.

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

Traffickers make people destroy documents, or confiscate them, because it provides them with another element of control. For most people, destroying documents makes it harder for asylum claim to be processed, and as 90%+ of people in small boats seek asylum you see how counterproductive that is. 3/

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

Majority of the time when people don't have documents the simple fact is they never did in the first place. When you are fleeing war and persecution it can be pretty hard to nip down the local passport office for example, or even return home to collect documents. This is all an aside though. 4/

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

ID cards aren't going to have any impact whatsoever on small boats. They just can't. Something issued in the country people are seeking asylum in? Well, how does anyone think that makes the slightest difference in the methods people use to reach that country in the first place. 5/

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

For immigration in general, ID cards would also have a sum total of sod all impact. To apply for a visa, or renew one, you have to accumulate substantial amounts of evidence, adding one more isn't going to make a huge difference when you already have three boxes of proof of identity in the attic. 6/

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

Ah, but what about "undocumented migrants". Yes, absolutely, they may not have the proof of identity which you need for a visa, lots of reasons for this. The key thing here is that they are...drum roll please...already undocumented, so ID cards, or the lack thereof, makes no difference. 7/

breffers.bsky.social•12 days ago

I'm sorry to be thick - so please can you explain more simply for me?
If you have a desperate life and need to flee your country and risk your life arriving illegally...Why would you not chose to settle in the country where there are no ID cards?

colbobs.bsky.social•12 days ago

There are lots of reasons to settle in a specific country, colonial ties, language, other family and many others.
I might imagine where would I go if the roles were reversed, to try and appreciate it better.
Unauthorised migrant is an umbrella term, irregular migrant being a subdivision within.

breffers.bsky.social•12 days ago

Which is why limiting legal methods seems such a huge part of the problem - and actually drives people into the hands of the traffickers.

colbobs.bsky.social•12 days ago

Absolutely and all for what seems to be a fear of looking soft on migration when in fact safe routes reduces criminal activity. I haven't personally seen any of the right wing responders actually want to defeat crime like this.
Have you or @danielsohege.bsky.social, @zoejardiniere.bsky.social?

zoejardiniere.bsky.social•12 days ago

Nah that’s not their style

danielsohege.bsky.social•11 days ago

Nope. Every measure they want actually makes things worse

zoejardiniere.bsky.social•12 days ago

Why would that be a concern?

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

People don't choose the country of asylum based on the asylum process, they tend to do so because they have existing ties to it, such as family or language.
Not nitpicking, but entering "irregularly" and entering "illegally" are two different things as well....

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

So long as someone who enters via an irregular route, such as small boats, presents themselves to the authorities, for seeking asylum for example, they haven't done anything illegal. They are actually protected under international law from being penalised for manner of entry.

breffers.bsky.social•12 days ago

I'm sure that's true. But also true is the natural human emotion of wanting to live and bring up a family in a safe place. And if such is reached after a desperate time isn't it natural to want to feel that one won't be stopped at any time in the future and expected to produce proof of existence?

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

Safety is highly subjective, especially when fleeing war and persecution. You don't want to try and rebuild your life somewhere where you keep looking over your shoulder, where authorities routinely abuse refugees, France, where there are repeated far right attacks, Germany, or...

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

Where you risk being dragged out of where you are sleeping and put on a raft which is dragged out to the middle of the Mediterranean, Greece. Likewise countries which are shifting more to the far right for example, such as Italy. You choose somewhere you have community.

para-handy.bsky.social•11 days ago

There are a lot of 'Jobsworth Pocket Hitlers' who would like nothing better than to have the power to see them.
Case of 'Papiere Bitta' they would not be far off insisting on being issued with Black Leather Trench Coats and Citreon Traction Avant Saloons.
Universal GTF is needed

clairecopperman.bsky.social•12 days ago

Terrific thread, Dan. I just don't get how Labour don't understand this.

danielsohege.bsky.social•12 days ago

I wish I had an answer, my job would be a lot easier

colbobs.bsky.social•12 days ago

Desire to understand and display it publicly is different to understanding and politicising their lack of display of understanding, unfortunately.

lisasevern.uk•11 days ago

They would however be a means by which trans people could be excluded from single sex spaces if that is made illegal

"... issues like ..."

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