Rewatching the John Wayne western Rio Bravo, which you might imagine to be a cornerstone of anti-woke, and if you did you’d be surprised how much of the running time is three middle aged men talking about their feelings & how to process trauma. Also ‘horny confused John Wayne’ scenes. - ThreadSky

paulduane.bsky.social • 79 days ago

Rewatching the John Wayne western Rio Bravo, which you might imagine to be a cornerstone of anti-woke, and if you did you’d be surprised how much of the running time is three middle aged men talking about their feelings & how to process trauma. Also ‘horny confused John Wayne’ scenes.

Comments

magiclanternmoth.bsky.social•79 days ago

John Wayne was in a surprising number of relatively progressive movies considering the man himself was quite awful. And ironically Wayne thought High Noon, the favorite movie of Ronald Reagan, was too woke and communist.

magiclanternmoth.bsky.social•79 days ago

See Also: John Ford the most politically confused man of all time

rboylansucks.bsky.social•79 days ago

Ford wasn't confused as much as radicalized in polar opposites before WW2 and after WW2. And radicalized is probably too strong a word for it.

magiclanternmoth.bsky.social•79 days ago

WW2 deeply affected everyone who lived through it for sure but I don't know if his political evolution can be cleanly delineated as just pre/post war. For example he was an anti-McCarthyite who passionately stood up for Joseph Mankiewicz in the early '50s, but a decade later he's a Goldwater guy.

magiclanternmoth.bsky.social•79 days ago

His pre-war output is notably regarded as pretty confused too. Stagecoach most famously of course. Is it derogatory or is it a radical work of anti-Western revisionism? Well, there's basically endless literature on that topic.

eijaksa.bsky.social•79 days ago

Somehow his films got more leftist the more right-wing he became.

rohmersimpson.bsky.social•79 days ago

I wish I could find the post - forum long gone, no doubt - where a friend/mentor of mine wrote brilliantly about how the Hollywood western was far, far more progressive, and self-critical, than many give it credit for.

magiclanternmoth.bsky.social•79 days ago

Oh absolutely, but it's fascinatingly debatable how much of that was consciously known to the filmmakers and actors involved. John Ford at least used to hold a lot of progressive views but then he got more conservative as he aged until he ended up becoming a Barry Goldwater supporter. Go figure.

magiclanternmoth.bsky.social•79 days ago

One of my favorite Westerns is The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance and that's one that can be interpreted in so many radically different ways. Was it meant to be progressive? I sure don't know.

rohmersimpson.bsky.social•79 days ago

Godard (paraphrased): you can despise Wayne for campaigning for Goldwater but you can also be moved to tears when he cradles Natalie Wood and says "Let's go home, Debbie."

magiclanternmoth.bsky.social•79 days ago

Even outside of the Western genre he had some roles in relatively solid and progressive movies. He had a bit role in the pre-Code film Baby Face (1933) for instance which I remember being kinda proto-feminist.

wesleydolan.bsky.social•78 days ago

That's a Christmas rewatch favourite in my house. It's relaxed pacing really works and enhances the film. Tremendous performances all around. I always think of Walter Brennan as the lovable Stumpy. So I was shocked that he was so good as the evil patriarch in "My Darling Clementine".

tiernanhenry.bsky.social•78 days ago

Paul, this whole thread has unrolled line a good pub conversation. With added interjections when you spot someone across the bar who you have to talk to but who will also add a whole other insight to the conversation. And what a film too - I was probably 10 when I saw it first (thanks to the BBC)

paulduane.bsky.social•78 days ago

Yes! With a couple of exceptions (weirdos with knee jerk reactions to the mention of Wayne) it’s been very positive

stane.bsky.social•78 days ago

Any love for Liberty Valance? It does go a bit Western Union, but makes its point, and, again, IIRC, Wayne is baffled by a smart woman for long periods.

paulduane.bsky.social•78 days ago

Yeah I love that movie of course but I am a Hawks guy predominantly rather than a Ford guy

stane.bsky.social•78 days ago

Still kills me that Bringing up Baby and Rio Bravo were directed by the same person.

paulduane.bsky.social•78 days ago

And The Big Sleep!

cjstockton.bsky.social•79 days ago

Great movie. Confirms all cowboys are bisexual.

drunkdracula.bsky.social•79 days ago

I have not watched them all, but tv series, THE RIFLEMAN has some excellent episodes like this. And a young Harry Dean Stanton! & other greats early in their career.

rohmersimpson.bsky.social•79 days ago

is RB a movie you revisit periodically, like us mad Hawksians?

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

Oh absolutely!

rohmersimpson.bsky.social•79 days ago

Last time, I spotted Carlos covering Colorado when they confront the tinhorn; he almost draws when the tinhorn tries to pull, then relaxes when Colorado regains the upper hand. There's also a cutaway to Feathers, clearly aroused when Chane kicks the tinhorn's chair out.

rohmersimpson.bsky.social•79 days ago

Also I skimmed the screenplay a bit - Hawks and his yellow legal pad, he made a lot of smart trims: for ex. when Chance explains Dude's sob story to Wheeler, it takes up way too much room on the page. Hawks had it pruned brilliantly.

licencetoqueer.com•78 days ago

Such a homoerotic movie!

decervelage.bsky.social•79 days ago

It was written by a woman, Leigh Brackett, who also wrote the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back.

melissjpeltier.bsky.social•78 days ago

Aha!

decervelage.bsky.social•78 days ago

Brackett was one hell of a great Sci-Fi and Noir author. She was Ray Bradbury’s best friend and co-wrote at least one pulp adventure tale with him. Also co-wrote two of the best Chandler movies ever made.

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

The amount of time Wayne & Brennan spend talking about how to deal with Dean Martin as he slowly begins to abandon his alcoholism & return to life, it’s really touching and the opposite to “toxic masculinity”. Just dudes being dudes caring about other dudes while Angie Dickinson raises her eyebrow.

culturalfatwa.bsky.social•79 days ago

Horny confused John Wayne

That's one I'll be a long, long time trying to unthink!

followmal.bsky.social•78 days ago

📌

johnmackbrown.bsky.social•79 days ago

I love that movie

stane.bsky.social•79 days ago

I hesitate to watch it, because then I watch all three versions, and then my brain does a mash up and I forget which gun fight is which. But RB has more of that mens' shed stuff than either of the other two.

dave29.bsky.social•79 days ago

I remember watching action movie after action movie (4 movies I think) on a long flight once and for the life of me it was hard to recall which movie was which, and what action happened in which movie, the movies basically all merged together in my memory so I understand what you are saying.

melissjpeltier.bsky.social•78 days ago

That’s why the action movies that really stand out are the ones that survive obsolescence.
I used to hate action movies until Die Hard.

shanekse85.bsky.social•79 days ago

I read somewhere that it was supposedly the right wing reaction to High Noon which I must admit I didn’t see at all when I watched it.

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

https://bsky.app/profile/paulduane.bsky.social/post/3lddizttzos2t

mickboss.bsky.social•79 days ago

ngl always preferred El dorado which is basically just the same movie but Robert Mitchum is an amazing force as the drunk sheriff haha 'let me hear you laugh!

jwwicks.bsky.social•79 days ago

Used to be a big John Wayne fan. Loved Hondo. Then I learned about his treatment of Sacheen Littlefeather.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/03/31/john-wayne-sacheen-littlefeather/

annebillson.bsky.social•79 days ago

Did you read right to the end of that Snopes report, John? Or maybe ask @selfstyledsiren.bsky.social about it?

jwwicks.bsky.social•78 days ago

Yes I read it. Even subbed so I can read her take. Storming the stage is BS. Wayne's own words got me, "some little unknown girl and dressing her up in an Indian outfit."

Articles place Wayne backstage and saying/yelling "horseshit".

I've asked my questions on her post.

leedaviddalton.bsky.social•79 days ago

I defy any man to declare he is not “horny confused” about Angie Dickinson

sfawcs.bsky.social•79 days ago

No confusion here tbh.

leedaviddalton.bsky.social•79 days ago

😏

rufustsuperfly.bsky.social•79 days ago

Bang on. Still find that virtually silent scene with Dean Martin falling to bits with his alcoholism absolutely fascinating. It’s so different from the rest of the movie in style.

mgcroadster.bsky.social•79 days ago

That dialogue free opening (3m 20s) - and I say to this as someone ambivalent towards the film as a whole - is one of the very best of any western.

phv3773.bsky.social•79 days ago

A guy in the movie biz said it's the most requested western for TV reruns.

wombatofevil.bsky.social•79 days ago

Dean Martin showed he could be a great actor in 3 or 4 movies and then just... decided to sing songs and play a drunk guy on stage and in roasts the rest of his life.

browernet.us•78 days ago

You may be a tad overstating those roles, but ok.

odduck.bsky.social•79 days ago

One of my favorite movies, period. I need to give it a rewatch soon.

drakenescio.bsky.social•79 days ago

Is there a reverse of the Betchel test for men?

Two men conversing about their feelings that aren't trauma in a non-life threatening situation?

Harder mode: no comedy.

philotheogical.bsky.social•79 days ago

It’s a great movie. Angie Dickensen at the top of her game, small but memorable part for Ward Bond.

bobssa.bsky.social•79 days ago

Have you ever seen the remake, El Dorado with James Caan? It’s more of the same, except the characters are different

sfawcs.bsky.social•79 days ago

Rio Lobo is kind of a re-run of the story too.

astronoharry.bsky.social•79 days ago

I had much the same reaction when my brother introduced me to The Sons of Katie Elder.

sfawcs.bsky.social•79 days ago

It’s my favourite Wayne film and my favourite Hawks’ western. I don’t even mind Ricky Nelson, he works in the part.
If anything I’d like even more of them shooting the shit in the jail.

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

It’s my favourite part! Shockingly John Carpenter doesn’t like the musical interlude. I am very disappointed by his response.

sfawcs.bsky.social•79 days ago

He’d have liked it if Brennan pulled out a synth.

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

Stumpy’s Theme

sfawcs.bsky.social•79 days ago

I was really disappointed to hear he was a really right wing nutjob. But…got over it.

tsrhodes.bsky.social•78 days ago

Angie Dickenson running rings around Wayne is so good

mikduffy.bsky.social•79 days ago

When I first saw it I was doing a BA in film and the lecturer introducing it revealed that he'd been watching the 16mm print he'd rented on the film dept Steinbeck, specifically so he could freeze frame and perv over the shots with Angie Dickinson in them.

siobhanmcelduff.bsky.social•78 days ago

That would certainly affect your response.

mikduffy.bsky.social•78 days ago

The same lecturer would later reveal that he was sleeping with one of the students in my year. He also once told me, the only Irish person in a workshop where he was dicussing Irish themes and motiffs in John Ford's film, that I didn't understand Irishness.

So many memories!

siobhanmcelduff.bsky.social•78 days ago

Nothing like the old time days of education...

waderick79.bsky.social•78 days ago

While its takeaway on gender relations leaves a LOT to be desired (Our “hero’s” solution to marital problems? Domestic violence! 😬), McLintock is surprisingly “woke” (for its time, at least) when it comes to Native American relations.

beatlesimon.bsky.social•79 days ago

Bizarrely, I watched a John Wayne western only yesterday afternoon for the first time since the 70’s! It was ‘The Train Robbers’, and my main reason for watching it was because it starred Ann-Margaret. Again, it featured three middle aged men talking about their feelings!

melissjpeltier.bsky.social•78 days ago

I’m not a dude but a woman who loves the Western genre overall (I prefer those like “Once Upon A Time In The West”) & even wrote one.
Can I come to your pub chat?

beatlesimon.bsky.social•78 days ago

Please do.

melissjpeltier.bsky.social•78 days ago

PS am an Irish dual citizen.

melissjpeltier.bsky.social•78 days ago

It’s a great discussion!

rboylansucks.bsky.social•79 days ago

The reasons they made it were decidedly anti-woke however lol

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

I don’t entirely agree. It’s a response to Hawks and Wayne feeling that High Noon was a bad film, with a silly premise, and their own version has a self-reliant independent sheriff who doesn’t ask civilians to help him.

leedaviddalton.bsky.social•79 days ago

I can’t tolerate HIGH NOON because I’ve known actual Quakers

bex-harvey.bsky.social•79 days ago

I always like the way Hawks' female characters are always mature, independent women with a mind of their own, and a past - as in Rio Bravo. Often a big part of the male character's journey with their masculinity is to learn to deal with this.

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

Yes! The way Angie Dickinson runs rings around him is endlessly entertaining

steamrob42.bsky.social•78 days ago

Pretty much the same in El Dorado & Rio Lobo

peace-njoy.bsky.social•79 days ago

Love this movie, memories from when I was very young watching John Wayne movies with my Granpa and pretty sure I had a crush on Dean Martin

shadenightingale.bsky.social•79 days ago

It can be surprising how Progressive a lot of old Westerns can be. “Gunsmoke” had episodes criticizing the death penalty, had a woman who ran her own business, and presented minorities as people (even if their depictions were cringily stereotypical).

natslady.bsky.social•78 days ago

In the early episodes it’s clear she’s operating a bordello

drmcarley.bsky.social•79 days ago

There is a way that films of that period (very roughly defined) can be more "adult" than a lot since because of the way they could assume an audience could pick up on things (and because their male audience knew something about fighting in a war?)

stane.bsky.social•78 days ago

Excellent point. Unlike all those Brits born in the sixties who seem to recall fighting in a world war.

drmcarley.bsky.social•78 days ago

It's interesting to think about the screen masculinity of, inter alia, Bogarde, Niven, Hayden, Stewart, and compare it to the likes of Wayne.

cowsarejustfood.bsky.social•79 days ago

i'm no big defender of wayne but have to assume that most people with opinions have never seen most of his movies.

andrewmale.bsky.social•79 days ago

Wayne’s curious beauty, his conflicted depictions of masculinity, his vulnerability, his poise… those people would have a field day with Wayne if they *did actually watch his films.

douglascheape.bsky.social•79 days ago

At 23 he was startlingly handsome.

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

The play with gender expectations in this movie is always fun to watch. And the delicacy of Wayne’s footwork!

sfawcs.bsky.social•79 days ago

cowsarejustfood.bsky.social•79 days ago

we rewatched 3 godfathers last week and his lightness and sincerity are hugely underrated.

neokefka99.bsky.social•79 days ago

It's funny while Wayne in real life was...uh yeah...I genuinely find his usual screen persona to be one of the more positive depictions of masculinity in popular media.

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

He seems to have become more rightwing partly as a result of being bullied by John Ford for not enlisting in WW2. A kind of protective colouration.

pgofton.bsky.social•79 days ago

Always thought Ford’s westerns never really got their due for their cynicism about specific people cheerleading that worldview, people like Wayne. Maybe why he liked casting him.

andrewmale.bsky.social•79 days ago

He peaked, I think, whilst dating Dietrich.

neokefka99.bsky.social•79 days ago

Hell, STAGECOACH is a movie about the "dregs" of the society joining together to help each other while a banker who thinks America should be run like a business is treated with complete contempt.

ricosblues.bsky.social•79 days ago

Whatever Wayne’s reasons for making it, the movie is unimpeachable. (I like it a lot more than High Noon, tbh.)

paulduane.bsky.social•79 days ago

Me too, by far

redheadedjedi.bsky.social•78 days ago

We talk about one of those confused John Wayne scenes in our Westerns episode. https://open.spotify.com/episode/6X46LXfPbXiWSPCDQtIibH?si=10dUtaFgTMqr2BSRLy2b9w

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